what is the meaning of those percentages? e.g. 61-66%
what is the meaning of those percentages? e.g. 61-66%
Long slow runs make long slow runners. 100m repeats is not a speed workout. For a 5k I wouldn't do anything shorter than 400m.
slopenguinrunner wrote:
It sounds like you increased your mileage cautiously enough were 60 mpw should not be a problem to continue from here on out. It's not an apples to apples comparison, but when I coached, I took about 2 calendar years of injury free running to get a varsity high school runner to 60 mpw. Your potential advantage is that you could be stronger physically being 28 years old. So I would not necessarily say you're running too much mileage.
That said, worrying about increasing your mileage further, for the 5k could be counter-productive. I would also be cautious about increasing the paces of your daily runs as it would inhibit regeneration and adaption from harder workouts.
It seems that, based on your schedule, that you need 5k pace and sub-5k pace workouts mixed into your schedule. From a physiological perspective, your body has to train and adapt to running faster. There are various ways to incorporate them and to build up to run a faster 5k race. With newer runners, I used to like to keep it simple. Start with 400s at a reasonable 5k goal pace with a 400 jog recovery (if you are around 6:00/mile pace, start maybe with 5:45 pace). Build up to doing 12 x 400. Then start shortening the rest. Then switch to doing 800s instead of 400s.
Granted, something like that took time. I had the luxury of a 6 month cycle. So I could go every other week or every 3 weeks before doing a workout like that. In other weeks, the quality workout could be 200s at mile pace, or a mutli-pace session (granted, this depending on the age/experience of the runner) or a speed-development workout.
My2cents wrote:
I agee with Lenny Leonard. You seem too focused on miles per week. With this +5miles a month you will be running 125mpw in a year, 185 in 2. When are you going to stop? 100mpw because it sounds cool?
Personally, I think you should stop at the mileage you're making progress on. You're a new runner, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's less than 50mpw. Do that for a couple months and add one shorter interval session (e.g., 10-15x400m, short rest). Maybe even alternate your tempo run with a longer interval workout (1000 repeats or mile repeats) every other week. No down weeks, unless you're feeling tired or have a big race you want to peak for. Consistency beats volume in my experience.
If you do that for a few months, you will make progress. Up your mileage when you're plateauing, but give your body time to adjust to the new training volume. Your current buildup plan might work for some people, but I think the target audience is more experienced runners who, after a break, are building up to the mileage they already know works for them.
Yeah I'd be at 100mpw by January 17th next year, that was the plan. 100mpw to build a base then add in workouts and intervals. Okay no down weeks. So squeeze out what I can from this mileage then up it when I plateau, got ya. I was planning on doing it backwards, build mileage then add workouts. I guess the big mistake there is I'll be taking too long to run 100mpw at my current fitness level. If I got faster I could run my mileage quicker so less time on my feet and quicker recovery.
I'm gonna stick to 65mpw and add intervals. I've never done something like 10x400m.
slopenguinrunner wrote:
rightthere wrote:I add 5 miles a month to my weekly mileage with a 25% and 50% drop in mileage the 3rd and 4th weeks for recovery.
Unless you are really tired from the training load, there is no need to make that drastic drop in mileage. A 25% drop in the 4th week should be sufficient.
Dropping your mileage that much can minimize the aerobic gains you are getting from the 2 other high-mileage weeks.
If the single recovery week is not enough, then you need to consider how you are spacing workouts. Or adjust your weekly mileage or your daily easy runs.
Nope not tired, reason it had a drastic drop in mileage is because it was from a injury prone mileage plan I found on here. Yeah I thought my down weeks might be messing up my high weeks, I seem to get in really good shape at the end of my 60mpw then I feel like I lose some fitness doing cut backs so glad you said that. I think a single recovery week would be enough, I'll try it.
More than mileage wrote:
There is way more to a fast 5k than just mileage. One of my training partners broke 16 minutes off 15mpw of high intensity work. As long as you neglect any sort of speed work, you aren't going to run any super quick times.
Was he a new runner like me? Did he have a previous base? If not then he must be fast at 5K but not longer distances. He built speed first then added miles?
pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:
Lenny Leonard wrote:It sounds like your goals are a little out of order. You are more concerned with running an arbitrary number of miles per week, rather than running a faster 5k.
If your goal is to break 17 in the 5k, you don't need to plan on running any set number of miles, you need to get better at running at 5:30 mile pace.
MPW is an analysis of training, not a training program in itself.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Right answer.
Yeah it's the right answer but what's the right way of doing it? Intervals or high mileage (run by feel and let easy pace naturally get faster).
Bill Bronger wrote:
Long slow runs make long slow runners. 100m repeats is not a speed workout. For a 5k I wouldn't do anything shorter than 400m.
Not if you run by feel and let your easy pace come down naturally and do a couple tempos a week. 100m to keep speed not develop it.
[quote]rightthere wrote:
I do want to try long intervals because I would love doing them (I love training hard) but I am afraid of messing up my base by doing them.
[quote]
There's your trouble.
When you coached your high school runners to 60mpw over two years was that just base building though? I assume you had them doing proper workouts faster than 5K pace as they would have had proper races to compete in. My plan was to build an aerobic base then start the real workouts.
Thanks for the interval advice, I'm taking it all onboard. Looks like everyone is saying I'm missing faster paced work below 5K pace.
So I should just start adding intervals, keep increasing my mileage as usual and stop dropping my mileage too much during the down weeks?
I wouldn't increase mileage. Just adding 5k pace work and faster will be enough of a stress to your training to produce a performance boost. Adding mileage AND intensity is a risk for an injury.
I had two cycles to work with summer to fall cross country; and winter track to spring track. I'd like to have a runner a year at a specific mileage before bumping up another mileage plateau. Freshman were around 40; sophomores at 50; juniors 60; seniors at 70. This was for a 1 through 5 guys from 15:50 to 16:50. The first 6 month cycle was the new mileage; the second 6 month cycle would be an adjustment in their daily paces based on their new 5k PRs.
The primary difference between the two was the base in the summer was geared to racing the 5k in the fall; the winter base was geared to the racing the 1600/3200m in the spring.
As a general training philosophy, I believe you emphasize certain types of workouts and paces during certain parts of the year or cycle. But because you emphasize one aspect of training, you don't leave out other parts. So even during the summer "base" for cross country, we still did mile pace work to keep their speed and efficiency. They weren't taxing workouts as there was plenty of aerobic recovery such as 12 x 200 with 200m recovery jog. Or they would be mixed into a tempo run as an advanced fartlek, like 3 sets of 4x200 at mile pace followed by a 1200 or 1600 at tempo pace. But the emphasis in the summer were tempo runs, long runs, and meat and potato mileage.
I never liked getting too far removed from any particular paces. There was a saying that I liked; "I don't like paying twice for the same real estate". I never wanted to see a runner struggle with a tempo run in the winter because it's been 2 months since their last tempo run. I hated seeing a runner crap the bed in a mile race in December because the last one was Memorial Day weekend.
xcskier66 wrote:
Hire a coach. Seriously.
It's the fool proof method to improve. Everyone thinks they can eyeball their own training. They can't.
based on my own experience 99.9999% of runners would benefit from a coach.
The only guy I can think of that doesn't need one is Meb. And he had 20 years of coached running experience before he started writing his own training plans. I'm 100% you aren't meb and never will be.
From what I recalled. I thought he still worked with his college coach, Bob Larsen?
But this is on point. Consistency is what matters. Gimmicks or novelty training hurt you in the long run.
The advantage of a good coach is that they are asking the how and why something succeeds or fails. They have perspective that you don't.
I throw out what I did not as saying "this is the only way to run faster"; it is just a perspective on what we did and what I felt worked for a mix of kids that had talent and started running 5k races in the high 17:00s as freshmen and those that were hamburgers and were running 24:00 5k races. It is simply a perspective based on what I felt went right and wrong in other seasons. I am the first to admit that if I had truly genetically gifted runners that could specialize in the 800m, I am not sure if my general training plans would have worked for them. I probably would have to have something different up my sleeve to give them their best chance for succeeding.
Some people have pure raw speed and high VO2 max and don't need high mileage. Others need a boatload of mileage to bring out their abilities. Some can just run their daily mileage at a relatively hard pace and get better, while others burn out and need to run super slow on a daily basis to adapt from the quality workouts.
A good coach recognizes these differences.
rightthere wrote:
More than mileage wrote:There is way more to a fast 5k than just mileage. One of my training partners broke 16 minutes off 15mpw of high intensity work. As long as you neglect any sort of speed work, you aren't going to run any super quick times.
Was he a new runner like me? Did he have a previous base? If not then he must be fast at 5K but not longer distances. He built speed first then added miles?
The post regarding sub 16:00 on 15 mpw is either a troll post or had a supremely genetically gifted training partner and doesn't understand the difference between causation and correlation.
Yeah, you need speedwork. But HIIT is a gimmick. No serious high school program, college program, or professional distance runner follows HIIT. To the extent a program may emphasize faster pace work like a Sebastian Coe or Stillwater HS in Minnesota, they are still at 40-50 mpw in base phase and 30-40 mpw in peak racing phase. Even Sebastian Coe was doing up to 80 mpw in his base phase when he did cross country to prepare for summer track racing. And he was an 800m runner who happened to race the mile better than most of the world.
So what should I do?[/quote]
quality, not quantity.
You need to get faster leg turnover and only way to run 5:30 pace for 5k race is to be able to run 5:00-5:10 pace comfortably in practice.
Head to track 1 -2 days a week.
6 * 600m with 200m jog recovery at 5:10 pace (aim to avg. 1:56, ideally start 1st one at 2:00 then 1:59, 1:59, 1:58, 1:56 1:56) staying under control no sprinting last 30m to make the time.
12 * 400m with 200m jog, try to average 75-75 for all 12.
4 * mile in 5:10-5:15 with 400m jog recovery.
Long slow running makes long slow runners. You can either do 5K race pace work now or at 100mpw. Only difference is at 100mpw there are more risks: burn out, injury, etc. Why take unnecessary risks to reach your goal of a faster 5K?
You should look up NotAustin18's posts here. He jumped from 70mpw to 100mpw. Lasted a few weeks then back down to 70mpw. Mileage ISN'T EVERYTHING. In fact, it's meaningless if it compromises your ability to do hard workouts.
I disagree with most of these posts I say you pick a target race and then start doing interval work months before your race. I would say right now you are doing base work right keep running this type of mileage or increase it if you want to continue to build a base which I think should be a 12-20 week process then start running interval work 800 repeats and mile repeats and such after the base phase then pull back the mileage before target race and run your heart out. The 5k is 90% aerobic
slopenguinrunner wrote:
rightthere wrote:Was he a new runner like me? Did he have a previous base? If not then he must be fast at 5K but not longer distances. He built speed first then added miles?
The post regarding sub 16:00 on 15 mpw is either a troll post or had a supremely genetically gifted training partner and doesn't understand the difference between causation and correlation.
Not a troll post, and while he is a very talented runner, all 11 in my training group have broken 18 minutes and 6 have broken 17 minutes, all off the same training. I am not for a second going to claim it is the ideal type of training, I am sure all could go faster with greater volumes. That said, I was simply trying to prove the point that high intensity work is very important to a fast 5k, probably more so than huge volumes.
Verybadrunner44 wrote:
I disagree with most of these posts I say you pick a target race and then start doing interval work months before your race. I would say right now you are doing base work right keep running this type of mileage or increase it if you want to continue to build a base which I think should be a 12-20 week process then start running interval work 800 repeats and mile repeats and such after the base phase then pull back the mileage before target race and run your heart out. The 5k is 90% aerobic
Afraid I completely disagree, this is a very inefficient way of training. If you look at the physiology, you will realise that while 5k is 90% aerobic, a large percentage of that aerobic power comes from type 2a muscle fibres, which can only be stimulated at relatively high intensity, with between 3k and tempo pace being ideal. By doing 3-5 months of just mileage, you are almost completely neglecting a very large percentage of the muscle fibres required for a fast 5k as they will not be recruited in slow running, essentially allowing them to detrain so any improvements from the previous season will be lost. This also greatly increases the injury risk, as when you do start working these fibres after a long layoff, they won't be prepared, as will the connective tissues which are not adapted to running quickly. Hence, it is vital to have faster pace training all year around in order to prevent the detraining of important muscle fibres and to reduce injury risk.
I never said don't do a tempo but this guy can barley break 19 minutes which unless he has no natural running talent at all has to do with your aerobic ability. I know many coaches who don't have guys doing any interval work until they can touch 18:30. The problem here is we don't know how fast his shorter distance PRs are so this maybe as good as it gets for him right now until he improves his natural speed but none the less having this guy go run hard intervals might not be the solution at all in my opinion and a lot of very successful runners opinion 90% of training should be easy aerobic work.