Dafne Schippers 22.25 ( -0.2)WL #1 in the World women's 200m

Clerk wrote:

Yep. Those clean Dutchies. Except for their speed skaters and cyclists. And their female long distance runners like Herzog. And their male sprinters like NR holder Brian Mariano. But not Schippers though.

Churandy Martina tied that 60m record and is sub 10 and sub 20 as a Dutchman so Mariano wouldn't really be much of NR holder.

As far as it goes I'm agnostic to her doping or not and I suppose it doesn't really matter, at some point its keeping up with the competition to dope, unless you're from the Rift Valley and then EPO doesn't work on you and what not.

PJ is her coach I presume and he's excellent but I first became familiar with him through the Charlie Francis forum, so that's worth mentioning.

PJ is her coach I presume and he's excellent but I first became familiar with him through the Charlie Francis forum, so that's worth mentioning.

Charlie Francis was also an excellent sprint coach, despite his unapologetic use of dope on his athletes. But agree that any coach associated with him should be suspect. Speaking of which, how come Bobby Kersee gets a free pass when it comes to suspecting coaches of doping?

That post was a little tongue-in-cheek. Here is my deeper analysis.

I have to start off of course, with saying that when I say \"The Dutch\" in this post, I\'m referring generally and loosely to athletes, coaches, agents, and federations. And I don\'t know if you\'ve seen my other posts, but it is not my goal to single out \"The Dutch\", but rather to point out the systematic and systemic shady-ness in the nation\'s elite sport.

It was reported a little earlier this month that the NOC*NSF (Duch Olympic Comittee) does regular check ups on Olympic athletes blood, checking off their scores. This is independant work from the Dutch anti-doping agency, who are angry that the data is not reported. This has been going on since 2010.

They only look at the off-scores, so it is not a health check, which would look at iron, HGB, etc. The NOC*NSF chief doctor Cees-Rein van den Hoogenband even says he wouldn\'t report a suspicious off score

.

Now, let\'s talk about that doctor, Cees-Rein van den Hoogenband. He started off in Cycling, on the Panasonic team. One of his first riders? Theo de Rooij, who became DS of Rabobank during its dirties times (Rasmussen and the revelations stemming from his book are another thread). He worked in sports medicine with Geldrop is Hans van Kuijk, the former team doctor of the TVM speedskating. That\'s the TVM of cycling shame, which lasted two years before taking on speed skating. Other coworkers at the sports medicine group include Wilfred Sip. Who are his clients or coworkers? Geert Linders, Theo de Rooij, Jan Raas, all of Rabobank shame, Jan Olbrecht (also VDH\'s coworker in Dutch Swimming, and carries out the blood testing on swimmers.), Alex Fievez who\'s NAC Breda athlete tested positive. Sip also worked with cyclist Erik Dekker, caught for EPO.

That\'s just the NOC*NSF web of dirty connnections. You being Dutch, I\'m curious what you think about these suspicions

-Pieter van den Hoogenband (son of CRvdH above), has several swimming titles, and has been accused multiple times of doping. One accusation (of Pieter and de Bruijn) made by the American coaches in 2000:

Jacco Verhaeren, their coach, is now coaching in Australia, who is seeing big swimming performances of late...

- de Bruiijn (see above)

-Yvonne Van Gennep, beating the doped east germans training alone after injury, right at the onset of EPO.

- Marianne Vos- the most dominant women\'s cyclist who took a very strange injury leave for the past year.

- Ellen van Langen 1992, Olympic 800m gold over a likely doped field including \'93 sanctioned Nurutdinova, 1:54(!) runner Ana Fidelia Quirot, and USSR\'s Yevseyeva and Gurina.

-Van Moorsel, super cyclist from 90\'s and 2000\'s.

Any thoughts on the Cocaine suspension of Yuri van Gelder? Was he out partying 3 days before the champs or looking for a boost?

And back to Cees-Rein, he is also behind the PSV soccer team, and the man behind Cristiano Ronaldo\'s supreme athletic domination in the sport.

I don\'t want to make it sound like Dutch athletes are somehow worse, but for some reason, the support personnel, the doctors, coaches, and agents, are everywhere. The inter-connections as coaches move within swimming to cycling to skating to soccer, and bringing positives or suspicions with them is emerging as uniquely Dutch. (And I want to reinforce that this is not an anti-dutch post. With regards to endurance sports, Italy is not far behind in their web of suspicion across nations, but doesn\'t have the same connections to swimming and skating. Foreign athletes coming to the US to dope (and getting caught) is (one of) the US\'s thing.)

All that being said and that is just one stem from the NOS*NSF. Like others have said above, what about the Dutch managers of the East Africans?

Parsing out these doping relationships is like a movie-montage of tracking the mafia or a cartel. I think I need a big bulletin board and thumbnail photos, maps, pins and yarn. All for the purpose of posting on a message board because no one with actual authority or capability to investigate is interested in doing so.

sprinthard wrote:The great sprint coach Pierre-Jean Vazel...

i don't know about that albeit he coached fasuba to 9.85 a decade ago but i don't know who he's coached since of note

i know him from other boards when he was just a youngster, still only mid-30s now & self-taught coach who does lot of research for which he has to be commended

his failing is that he doesn't really have any clue about hard science ( Canova is a more "scientific coach" ) & probably more into "technical" matters such as posture, cadence, drive-phases, etc

the question is whether coaching a guy to 9.85 ( when 9.85 meant something ) when only in mid-late-20s as a coach makes you a great coach or not

considering fasuba was a highly doubtful character ( his 60m split in that 9.85 was something like a totally outrageous 6.35s !!! ), i'm not sure that the appellation is yet apt...

coach d wrote:

Clerk wrote:

Yep. Those clean Dutchies. Except for their speed skaters and cyclists. And their female long distance runners like Herzog. And their male sprinters like NR holder Brian Mariano. But not Schippers though.

It will be interesting to see what happens when WADA retests those speed skater samples from Sochi.

Its interesting that we have seen a rise in caucasian sprinters on the womans side surface with the added drug testing and maybe other ethnic groups have "slowed" down?

Jock Sniffer wrote:

coach d wrote:

It will be interesting to see what happens when WADA retests those speed skater samples from Sochi.

Its interesting that we have seen a rise in caucasian sprinters on the womans side surface with the added drug testing and maybe other ethnic groups have "slowed" down?

There has been no slowing down. More athletes are joining the arms race.

Also, WADA doesn't manage the retests per se. IOC oversee it all, and we know they are more interested in the illusion of clean sport then actual anti-doping.

Clerk. I was wishing a few days ago that I knew more about the Dutch connections to the conspiracy story, because they fly under the radar.

And now you come up with this post on the Dutch... which is obviously too long a post. Oh well.

In my personal opinion: WOW!

I liked this part:

Parsing out these doping relationships is like a movie-montage of tracking the mafia or a cartel. I think I need a big bulletin board and thumbnail photos, maps, pins and yarn

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7228072&page=1#ixzz46iolh2Nb

The multiple sports connection is key. The doctor doing "treatment" does not care if his client is a runner, cyclist, swimmer, tennis player, soccer player, etc. Look at Dr. Fuentes for a good example.

Here is Ellen Van Langen with Jos Hermens of GSC at his 30th anniversary gala held just a few weeks ago. IAAF President Lord Sebastian Coe and Haile Gebrselassie are also there. What a fun time it looks like that evening.

http://www.athleticsweekly.com/blog/galaxy-of-stars-attend-global-sports-communications-anniversary-41484/

...the question is whether coaching a guy to 9.85 ( when 9.85 meant something )...

9.85 is still huge.

Clerk wrote:

.... -Pieter van den Hoogenband (son of CRvdH above), has several swimming titles, and has been accused multiple times of doping. One accusation (of Pieter and de Bruijn) made by the American coaches in 2000:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics2000/swimming/935467.stm

Jacco Verhaeren, their coach, is now coaching in Australia, who is seeing big swimming performances of late...

- de Bruiijn (see above) ..... .

I often wondered about van den Hoogenband, mainly because he beat Ian Thorpe (like all Aussies, I'm instantly skeptical when anyone beats our champs) :) ... but the link you provided doesn't really offer anything at all. Do you have anything more substantial, because that link doesn't amount to anything at all.

Thanks

its interesting that we have seen a rise in caucasian sprinters on the womans side surface with the added drug testing and maybe other ethnic groups have "slowed" down?

Yes, sure the last time we saw a of that kind on the female side was back in the 1970 with the East German girls and the ban of AAS , we all remember how the ban of anabolic steroid allowed these gals to compete more equitably.

"Added drug testing" allowed this young sprinter from Oregon last week to drop from a 11"58 PB to 10"99, in one race which rivals SAFP (and other Carribean teamates) bizarre progression (which was done more gradually in several races) from 2007 to 2008.

Bizarrely, in America, these kind of drop only seems to happen when they join the same college in the NorthWestern part of the country.

That being same the demonization of other Dutch athletes in this thread must stop.

Pieter VDH was a young phenom who won several European juniors champs. I am pretty sure he was clean.

Inge de Bruijn, however went from a very average swimmer (couldn't make the Dutch team for in Atlanta 1996) to a beast in Sydney 2000 at the age of 27 (in a sport where precocity is the norm). But then again she was training in America when those drops happened.

PJ also coached Ronald Pognon of France with PRs of 6.45 and 9.99 for 60m & 100m respectively.

He participated on Charlie Fracnis's message board, but was not involved with Charlie's training group.

I didn't think Bob Kersee got a pass. Charlie and Carl Lewis both wrote of Kersee's steroid rumors in their books 20 years ago. The rumor was that his athletes at Cal State Northridge, UCLA and in the 84' olympics were on epo and hgh. Alice Brown was built like a running back.

I don't have anything more substantial. It is a "he does(did) well, so I'm suspicious." The link is just a link to the American call-out because there is hardly any other example of any current athlete identifying others in the media based on intuition alone.

And no. There is no demonizing going on in this thread. If athletes didn't want to have suspicions floating around them, they wouldn't be able to dominate dirty sports like they do, and wouldn't hang around doping doctors.

Phantasy Star

RE: Dafne Schippers 22.25 ( -0.2)WL #1 in the World women's 200m 4/23/2016 1:01PM - in reply to sprinthard

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AWESOME performance. Can't wait to see her DESTROY the dopers in Rio.

Dafne Schippers

Ripped

Beautiful

Talented

MF'ING CLEAN!!!!!!!!!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beautiful?,.....NOT

rjm33 wrote:

There were a lot of side effects when EPO first entered cycling.

Side effects would lead to lots of dead doping Dutch cyclists.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/us/stamina-building-drug-linked-to-athletes-deaths.html

Lots? I only see 1 mentioned and know of no one else. Name a few?

Patrick Ewing wrote:

Phantasy Star

RE: Dafne Schippers 22.25 ( -0.2)WL #1 in the World women's 200m 4/23/2016 1:01PM - in reply to sprinthard

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AWESOME performance. Can't wait to see her DESTROY the dopers in Rio.

Dafne Schippers

Beautiful?,.....NOT

Hey, Ewing you still look like Cro-Magnon man, so stop hating on Daffy.

Instead, think about a three-some with her and Ronda Rousey.

Thanks for this reply. Great to see someone actually backing up their statements. I don't agree with everything you say, but I admit there's some things here that I wasn't aware of, that makes me reconsider some of my stance on some Dutch athletes/teams etc.

Just a few thoughts:

- Pieter van den Hoogenband:

Other people accusing an athlete of doping solely on the merits of them being better than the rest means vey little to me. I need something more substantial than that. Someone has to be the best, right? Isn't that the ultimatw purpose of competition, to find out who's best at something? What good is that if the best is than automatically suspect?

- Inge de Bruiijn:

Valid points, though I do believe a change of training regime can do a lot for your performance, even at 'older' age.

-Yvonne Van Gennep, beating the doped east germans training alone after injury, right at the onset of EPO.

Like I said above; someone has to be the best. Furthermore, speed skating is very much about technique, that's the most important reason us Dutch people have been dominating the sport for so long. It's in our dna, everybody knows how to skate here, and there's a wealth of knowledge about it other countries don't have (mostly because of lack of interest). Despite that advantage, many times when there's finally a real talent from another country who really decides to go for success in speed skating they blow away the competition (Erik Heiden, Shani Davis, Enrico Fabrice to name a few). Think of all the untapped potential walking around all over the world who have never even heard of speed skating, let alone live near a speed skating facility…

- Marianne Vos:

She was overtrained, nothing 'very strange' about that. She's a beast, can't choose what discipline of cycling she likes most so she does them all, she wants to win EVERY race and can't contain herself even in the minor races that should just be used to get ready for the important ones. No surprise she would eventually pay the price. Furthermore, I wouldn't stick my head out for any athlete, but I would give up watching all sports if I found out Marianne had doped. Would be very hard for me to believe, seems VERY out of character for her.

- Ellen van Langen:

I still remember watching that race on live broadcast, man, was that something. A Dutch women beating them all! But in hindsight, I don't know… maybe you are right.

- Van Moorsel:

Comparable to Marianne Vos. Like Fanny Blankers-Koen in the early days, many Dutch women are tall and strong (not just the ones who do sports, people over here a very tall in general) and of the no nonsense kind. Like I said, someone has to be the best, and seeing that cycling is also in our dna (like speed skating). I don't think it's that strange to see a Dutch women dominating a sport like cycling.

- Yuri van Gelder:

Yuri has been on LOTS of talk shows, and there has been a lot written about him after that whole ordeal. From all that, yes, I really do think he was foolish enough to use cocaine. Do you thing he used cocaine to better his performance, or that it was somehow a coverup for something else? I don't understand the accusation here really, seeing that cocaine is easily detected.

- Dutch managers of the East Africans:

From the old VOC days to now, the Dutch are traders and business man at heart. I guess Jos Hermens etc. just saw an opportunity early on, and once athletes know you are an important manager I recon it's not that hard to stay at the top of the game.

One last thing. I do wholeheartedly share the view that athletes should actively stay away from all the shady doctors, managers etc. to keep themselves from suspicion. All those 'doctors' have been made way too important, let's get back to basics.

wtfunny wrote:I often wondered about van den Hoogenband, mainly because he beat Ian Thorpe (like all Aussies, I'm instantly skeptical when anyone beats our champs) :) ...

why ?

who cares about aussies or dutch ?

you're not an american...

poor...

Ffredricks wrote:

[quote]its interesting that we have seen a rise in caucasian sprinters on the womans side surface with the added drug testing and maybe other ethnic groups have "slowed" down?

"Added drug testing" allowed this young sprinter from Oregon last week to drop from a 11"58 PB to 10"99, in one race which rivals SAFP (and other Carribean teamates) bizarre progression (which was done more gradually in several races) from 2007 to 2008.

Bizarrely, in America, these kind of drop only seems to happen when they join the same college in the NorthWestern part of the country.

]

It is interesting, but you should check your info a bit more thoroughly and understand that the girls are not doping up there. Rather, it is a product of good training and nearly perfect technique because of training with Curtis Taylor (a Tony Wells protégé along with Caryl Smith, who trained De Grasse to the great year last year and turned USC into a sprint powerhouse). They both have built on Tony's legendary foundation are excelling without a tainted past.

Hannah Cunliffe didn't just DROP 11.58 to 10.99 in one race... There was a long time and a lot of training between those performances. She ran 11.38 (+3.4) her JR year of HS and an 11.40 (+2.4) her senior year in HS. She then went to Oklahoma where the training wasn't very good for her and still ran 7.28 as a freshman indoors. She didn't compete for Oklahoma in the spring and transferred to Oregon, which was back to similar but better training than she had from HS and with the best sprint coach in the world. She has been training almost a full year with other great athletes with great physio and all the other support that UO provides. Her 7.12 this year showed she was ready for sub 11, so it wasn't out of the blue.

ventolin^3 wrote:

wtfunny wrote:I often wondered about van den Hoogenband, mainly because he beat Ian Thorpe (like all Aussies, I'm instantly skeptical when anyone beats our champs) :) ...

why ?

who cares about aussies or dutch ?

you're not an american...

poor...

Why what?

"Aussies and Dutch" care about "Aussies and Dutch" .. just a guess.

I'm actually a dual-citizen . not that it matters on this forum.

WTF do you mean by "poor"?