Why is it hard for milers/800m runners to run the 400m?

Wow we just went over this.

Coe would challenge for the Gold today if he was in 1981 mode (i.e., 800 mode). Coe didn't run his best 1500m time until 6 or so years later when he was in 1500m mode.

In the 1970s, Coe did double the 800m/1500m at same events. THOSE times would NOT be competitive today. He did not run 1:41x and 3:28x within a few months or even a few years of each other. When he did run the 800m/1500m within the same training cycle his times were 1:44-1:47x and in the high 3:330s for the 1500m.

Hope this might spark of some discussion. Obviously it isn't ever going to happen so it's all strictly hypothetical.

After Rio, take the first 4 finishers in the 400 and 800 and race them over 600.Score the race as a XC - 1 point for first down to 8 for eighth. Which distance wins the team race?

The main reason for a middle distance runner to run a 400 is to test their speed.

They can just do this in a workout.

Do a full warm-up and then do an all out 400.

Rest 10-15 minutes. Then do a couple of quick 200s and you have a speed workout.

There is no reason to waste a whole day and maybe travel somewhere to race a 400 if you are a middle distance runner.

You possibly run a half a second faster in a race then you would in a workout.

formerD1 wrote:

The funny thing is when Coe doubled at the Moscow Olympics he actually lost the 800m with a 1:44x but won the 1500m.

More evidence that training for the 1500m (e.g., adding some serious distance to your training) completely destroys your speed. Funny enough he came back and trained/ran exclusively 800m/1000m races for half a year and set the WR for the 800m. Then he shifted to the mile for the rest of the year and set a WR at that.

Notably, when he set his PRs, he didn't do a single "double" and focused purely on that one event.

I want to disagree with you, but you may be right. Coe, Cram, and Souleiman are the only 3 people under both 3:30 and 1:43. I thought for sure Kiprop or Makhloufi would be sub-1:43. Nope.

The best counterpoint to your example is Steve Cram. Set a WR for 1500 meters (sub-3:30) and then 36 days later ran 1:42-high when the WR was 1:41.7 and only 3 men had every run faster.

But that seems to be a rare example, rare enough that I would concede that in general you're probably right.

Souleiman is the closest guy to being a true 800/1500 guy right now. And by that I mean his performances in both are about the same quality. Not that he focuses on the 800 before the 1500 like Ventolin says that means (before he jumps in).

The conversion you are looking for is 2.04 to be the 'perfect' middle distance runner. That potentially puts you around WR quality in both events at the same time. Very difficult to actually achieve. It may never be seen again.

But Souleiman and Cram have shown that it is possible to run world class times with around that particular conversion. So one could say it is possible to be a little faster than they were in both events.

Something like 1:42.0 and 3:28.0

You could potentially do the double in Rio off that. Souleiman is the only guy I see possibly achieving those times in the near future.

I have a sneaking feeling Makhloufi may drop some bombs in the 800m too this year and 'come in line' by breaking 1:43.

If Kiprop breaks the WR, say 3:25.5, then I'd expect him to also run ~1:42.5 based on past performances, which would make him a pretty strong middle distance guy but leaning towards the 1500.

mark b wrote:

Hope this might spark of some discussion. Obviously it isn't ever going to happen so it's all strictly hypothetical.

After Rio, take the first 4 finishers in the 400 and 800 and race them over 600.Score the race as a XC - 1 point for first down to 8 for eighth. Which distance wins the team race?

One is a distance team, the other a sprint team.

And the 800 runners win. They can of course run 600 easily, but the 400 runners struggle.