Could somebody explain why there would be any state laws requiring purchasing autos via a franchise?
Seems like the dealer network did a great job lobbying for something that only helps themselves. Net zero to customers.
Could somebody explain why there would be any state laws requiring purchasing autos via a franchise?
Seems like the dealer network did a great job lobbying for something that only helps themselves. Net zero to customers.
Sharjah wrote:
Could somebody explain why there would be any state laws requiring purchasing autos via a franchise?
Seems like the dealer network did a great job lobbying for something that only helps themselves. Net zero to customers.
Socialist lobbyists who represent auto dealers, that's why.
Not without continued government subsidies on the buyer and producer side. Tesla is one big tax payer funded pig.
Shannon Hays wrote:
Not without continued government subsidies on the buyer and producer side. Tesla is one big tax payer funded pig.
No more so than any other automaker, unless you know something the rest of us don't?
No Way wrote:
fisky wrote:While on Teslas, a friend asked his son over dinner how many miles you'd have to drive a Tesla compared to a $54,000 BMW to break even in gas savings.
I showed him how to do the math on a napkin. He surprised his dad a few minutes later by telling him it was about 360,000 miles. That was when gas was about $2.50/gallon so it would be a lot more miles now.
Just working backward from your math, it looks like you assumed the Tesla was $30k more than the BMW and divided that number by $2.50 and multiplied by 30 to get 360,000 miles.
This doesn't factor in the much lower cost of maintenance for the Tesla, the tax credits, or the fact that you get more car with the Tesla.
That said, no one buying a $75,000 car is buying it for practical purposes. They're buying it because it's what they want. A $75,000 Tesla becomes more cost effective than a $75,000 BMW the second it drives off the lot.
A BMW 5 series ($54,000) is the same size and same mid size luxury class. You do not get more car with the tesla. But at least with the 5 series you can drive across the country if you wanted to.
Also your partially right about maintenance but bmw does pay for it the first 50,000 miles. And depending where you live it will be hard to find a qualified tesla mechanic or garage. Meanwhile there are bmw mechanics and dealerships everywhere.
Sharjah wrote:
Could somebody explain why there would be any state laws requiring purchasing autos via a franchise?
Seems like the dealer network did a great job lobbying for something that only helps themselves. Net zero to customers.
I believe it was done after the recession to protect the Manufacturer. The dealerships HAVE to buy the vehicles and its their job to sell them.
Lover of Motor Carriages wrote:
No Way wrote:Just working backward from your math, it looks like you assumed the Tesla was $30k more than the BMW and divided that number by $2.50 and multiplied by 30 to get 360,000 miles.
This doesn't factor in the much lower cost of maintenance for the Tesla, the tax credits, or the fact that you get more car with the Tesla.
That said, no one buying a $75,000 car is buying it for practical purposes. They're buying it because it's what they want. A $75,000 Tesla becomes more cost effective than a $75,000 BMW the second it drives off the lot.
A BMW 5 series ($54,000) is the same size and same mid size luxury class. You do not get more car with the tesla. But at least with the 5 series you can drive across the country if you wanted to.
Also your partially right about maintenance but bmw does pay for it the first 50,000 miles. And depending where you live it will be hard to find a qualified tesla mechanic or garage. Meanwhile there are bmw mechanics and dealerships everywhere.
I used the 535i and the P85D as my comparison since it most accurately reflected the prices we were talking about. You do get more car with the Tesla. It's faster, better equipped, has more seating, more storage, and more "cool factor" which is what you're buying for $75k. Like I said, people spending that much money on a car aren't looking for practicality. They're looking for status and coolness. I'm in no way knocking the BMW, I would love that car. However, comparing it to a Model S in terms of payback for the gas savings doesn't make any sense. They're very very different cars.
Sharjah wrote:
Could somebody explain why there would be any state laws requiring purchasing autos via a franchise?
Seems like the dealer network did a great job lobbying for something that only helps themselves. Net zero to customers.
Tesla L.A. is cutting edge and have removed the middleman or car dealers from the process.
Are we assuming for the math that the electricity to charge a Tesla is free? I know it is heavily subsidized but it has to cost something (and be produced by burning fossil fuels in at least 70% of the cases).
Doh etosh wrote:
Are we assuming for the math that the electricity to charge a Tesla is free? I know it is heavily subsidized but it has to cost something (and be produced by burning fossil fuels in at least 70% of the cases).
I think for Fisky's math he was. Charging a Tesla can be free. There are superchargers all over the country that are free for all owners. As far as electricity generated by fossil fuel, all but the absolute worst power plants are far more efficient than automobile engines. Even most coal plants are better than gas engines.
Its possible. But Tesla has not shown any evidence so far they can do it. It seems to me, mass producing vehicles in a cost efficient way is a skill set unto itself, largely separate from building a car. But I don't think financing for their factory needs is the problem. It sounds like they will have about $3 billion up front with all these deposits. And they still have good access to credit markets or issuing new stock.
Whether or not EVs is the future is not really relevant to this thread. For whatever reason the demand is there.
Precious Roy wrote:
There are huge advances in lithium ion batteries in the pipeline that will radically transform battery powered vehicles.
Do you have any links to news stories or something about this? I'm genuinely curious.
Comments from Jefferies analyst about efficiencies from the Gigafactory and improvements in the battery chemistry:
http://insideevs.com/analyst-gigafactory-tesla-battery-cost-will-fall-100-per-kwh/
Estimate that the Gigafactory is a year ahead of schedule:
http://insideevs.com/tesla-gigafactory-still-ahead-schedule-plus-new-4k-drone-flyover-video/
When has Tesla ever delivered on time? They cannot ramp up production rapidly at all. And in two years they are going to deliver 200,000 of a new model? I don't think so. That's not what this guy does well. He is an idea man.
No. It's a ponzi scheme.
Absolute Moron, perhaps, but not a buyer of snake oil like you.Masters in Mechanical Engineering. Working as an engineer for the last 30 years.Not a salesman like Musk.Son of a mining engineer-which is the limiting industry in this matter.If these non-degrading batteries exist, where are they? They are angels dancing on the head of a pin. Some revolution is always just around the corner, and has been for 40 years. Solar power is 1/10th the cost is was 30 years ago, and still can't compete with fossil fuels without heavy subsidies. Batteries are vastly improved from 40 years ago-and that improvement has provided cell phones and ipads. Scaling that technology up to autos, with a production of hundreds of millions of units, storing Trillions of Joules is a tall order. What is the world's annual production of Lithium? Can it be expanded by a factor of 1 million in the next decade? Using less exotic technologies, what about Lead and Cadmium and Nickel? Think these are clean technologies-take a visit to any smelter in the world. They make oil refineries look like operating rooms.Anyone who thinks there is an insatiable demand for 35K cars has not visited a DMV lately. Of the 250 Million drivers in this country, about 200 Million are struggling to keep tread on the tires and gas in the tank of their 8 year old Toyotas.The second law of thermodynamics will kick your a55 every time. Gasoline is a high energy, low entropy fuel that is unmatched by anything other than Uranium 235 and Plutonium 239. With a gallon of gasoline cheaper than a gallon of Coca-Cola-and yet providing the ability to move 2000 pounds of payload 20 miles-there is little urgency for exotic, uneconomical alternatives, Just a moron, keeping it real. And selling TSLA short.
Interesting Stuff wrote:
Voice of Reason wrote:Delorean for Millenials.
The deep cycle batteries in any electric car are the missing link. They are marginal when new, and degrade exponentially. Musk has not solved this-indeed no one has.
Hybrid's batteries last longer because they don't get emptied as much.
The delays won't kill the company, because the customers that just plunked down a G are true believers. The company will hit a wall when these true believers plunk down the other 34K 3 to 5 years from now, and then realize the cost of ownership is much greater when they have to replace the batteries after 40 thousand miles. That's a big bill for a car that's a couple years old.
There is a limited number of people who pay 35K for a car-and they are a demanding lot. These aren't Volkswagen Jetta buyers.
Wow.... You are an absolute moron, how is it possible to be this stupid?
Ah, the familiar rant of a short-seller in full panic.
jjjjjj wrote:
When has Tesla ever delivered on time? They cannot ramp up production rapidly at all. And in two years they are going to deliver 200,000 of a new model? I don't think so. That's not what this guy does well. He is an idea man.
If you've been following the story, on-time delivery is always a leap of faith and delays are inconsequential to the long-term strategy. So don't get too excited if this is delayed by a few quarters.
That said, all indications are that this car is substantially easier to assemble than the others, so it may just ship on time. And if Tesla keeps missing annual delivery targets by a quarter or so they'll still be selling more cars than BMW or Mercedes in very short order.
Ford Motor Company
Total Market Cap $51 B
Total Earnings $7.3 B
2.6 Million Units sold-$2800 per unit profit.
Tesla
Total Market Cap $32.6 B
Total Earnings Negative 950 Million.
50,000 units sold-$19,000 loss per unit
Tesla has 60% the market cap of Ford, yet sells less than 2% of the vehicles as Ford, and loses $19,000 on each and every sale-even with a $10,000 per unit subsidy. And their current product Is a luxury item with presumably higher margins than would be expected from a more low brow offering.
Tesla is priced for perfection. Any growth that might happen is already priced into the stock. It's priced as if it already sells 1.8 Million widgets, at a profit of 3000 dollars per widget. Yet it has never demonstrated an ability to build 5% of that number of widgets, and has never made a nickel on any widget it's sold.
It's a tulip frenzy.
ryan foreman wrote:
Its possible. But Tesla has not shown any evidence so far they can do it. It seems to me, mass producing vehicles in a cost efficient way is a skill set unto itself, largely separate from building a car. But I don't think financing for their factory needs is the problem. It sounds like they will have about $3 billion up front with all these deposits. And they still have good access to credit markets or issuing new stock.
Whether or not EVs is the future is not really relevant to this thread. For whatever reason the demand is there.
US automakers are not actually efficient as you might believe. They have the benefit of low property taxes (long time land owners), large manufacturing plants, and existing tooling/equipment used to build many models for many years. Automakers generally keep a car model around for 7 years, and new models of different cars come out in different years. Force any US automaker to start from scratch and you end up with a solution that looks like Tesla. Money loser initially, and then profitable but not impressible so.
Alternative cars to gasoline fuels are the future. All the automakers in the world know it, and they are all working on solutions: electric, hybrid, fuel cell, external combustion, etc.