Who is Daniel?
Who is Daniel?
Yes these workouts are doable in general. Remember he asks his athletes to run at date pace not goal pace. Personally i would never do or assign 5 miles at mile pace but i have done 6-8x800 at mile pace without issue with less rest so its possible. 3x600 workout is definitely the hardest i see but he has it in the first week of his taper phase and only once.
Does the 3rd edition still have 8km as the upper limit for the R pace? I've always thought that to be crazy as his R pace is right around mile pace. I couldn't imagine doing 5 miles of mile type effort, regardless of the recovery time.
I know in the past Coogan had his athletes do 4x1 mile at 5k to be ready for 5k, and his athletes seemed to have good success with that. I've done 6 miles total at my 8km pace, but even that felt like a stretch and not sure how useful (so not over training) it would be to extend to 6 miles at 3k-5k effort (the I pace). I'm more of a longer D guy, so maybe a 1500-5k guy could handle I pace better than me... I also run mostly by feel and ignore pace (too many factors on a given day can affect times), except for a few key times when I just want to get the legs used to a speed...
bigtool05 wrote:
Chet Steadman wrote:You're underestimating the rest on these workouts. Most come out to 2-4 min--plenty for an elite athlete like you described.
For reference: I just did 7x1k with 2 min rest in 2:58
How does is that "for reference"? We have no idea how fast you are
That's my point, too. Just because someone does it it doesn't mean it's a good idea. The most impressive running should happen on raceday. When I hear stuff like "high school 4:26 miler does 10 x 800 @ 2:09" I just can shake my head in silent disbelief and shame for the coach of this young talent... who clearly could run close to the high school 2 mile record if he had a good coach. Do you think LV did 10 x 800s faster than 2:09? I don't...
Damn Daniel's back at it again with the insane workouts
Whodat wrote:
Who is Daniel?
"Jack Daniels' insane workouts" - better ?
Since English is not my first language, minor mistakes might be acceptable as long as you can guess the meaning ...
Two factors come into play:
1. Daniels was a swim coach and swim recovery is faster than run recovery. He didn't fully account for that in his training.
2. Daniels inadvertently (he did not know at the time) coached a few dopers and they recovered more quickly than they should have, which skewed his numbers a bit.
How about some of his marathon workouts?
I'm actually a fan of his broader system, his dividing things up into threshold, interval and rep pacing, etc. But in his marathon training, things get really weird at times.
For instance, you go from having 20-minute threshold runs being a good, nice workout to suddenly 2x10-12 mins threshold pace PLUS 80 minutes easy/10 miles easy PLUS 15-20 mins at threshold pace.
C'mon!
You don't just start with these workouts, you work up to them over time. When you are signing on for a training plan you have to eat all the courses in order, it's not a buffet where you get to pick and choose. I've done that 10x800 workout (it blows) but that wasn't week one. We did 6x800, 7x800, etc. It was over 2 months of 800s before we got to the 10x800.
Fair enough ive recently run 4:02 for 1500m
Point being, it stands to reason that someone that's 5-6s per quarter per quarter over the mile can run 10s faster over 1000m when they have equivalent or even longer rest.
DRF is a really big book. I've noticed people sometimes nit pick the workouts without having read all of the pertinent chapters/sections.
Those 3x600 and 10x800 sessions are great workouts...for dopers. For sessions developed before the doping era, reference the Purdy interval training tables.
Daaaaaaaaaamn Daniels, back at it again with the hard ass workouts workouts
Daniel's illusions wrote:
Ok, let's take a sub-elite runner averaging 100 mpw with the following PR's:
Mile: 3:58
3k: 7:53
5k: 13:44
All those times are equivalent to a 'VDOT' value of 77.
Although I really like Daniel's scientific approach to running some of his suggested workouts are imo not even remotely possible.
1) 10x 1k w/ 400-600 jog in 2:48
2) 6x mile w/ 800 jog in 4:25
Both Vo2max workouts @ I pace have a max distance of 10k and a shorter rest than effort time.
3) 10x 800 w/ 800 jog in 2:00
(that sounds absolutely insane)
8k distance @ R pace and equal distance recovery just as he suggests it.
4) 3x 600 @ 800 (FR) pace with 1k jog
Certainly easier than the first 3 but still pretty impossible with a 1k jog rest (about 5 min)
Have you ever done anything close to those workouts ?
Opinions
I think these times are upper limits for your workouts, like if you felt really good you shouldn't go faster than what he suggests. But if you go slower and then maybe cut down so that the end of the workout is at the pace he suggests, that works. People stress over times too much, go by effort and when you feel good, hammer the workout, and if you feel like crap, then hang on and run a reasonable pace to start off so that you can either hold it or cut down at the end. I think an underrated characteristic of elite runners is the ability to push oneself by feel just the right amount and know exactly when they've gone too far, are just right, or are slow. This creates effective workouts that allow the best to get the best out of their training.
two factors wrote:
2. Daniels inadvertently (he did not know at the time) coached a few dopers and they recovered more quickly than they should have, which skewed his numbers a bit.
Who?
You guys have never been around anyone fast if you think those are crazy workouts.
I truly believe that DANIELS did not realize he was coaching dopers. His workouts are for dopers
Things to do in Bham wrote:
You guys have never been around anyone fast if you think those are crazy workouts.
Webb did 9 x 800 avg. 2:02/03 in a once in a lifetime workout. I know a guy that ran 13:1x and he never ran 10 x 800 faster than 2:05ish. So it seems you have been around much faster people than 3:46 milers or 13:10 runners. I guess you live with Bekele, Geb or someone like this. Then tell the PR and the specific workout, I'm interested.
Pikachu wrote:
Things to do in Bham wrote:You guys have never been around anyone fast if you think those are crazy workouts.
Webb did 9 x 800 avg. 2:02/03 in a once in a lifetime workout. I know a guy that ran 13:1x and he never ran 10 x 800 faster than 2:05ish. So it seems you have been around much faster people than 3:46 milers or 13:10 runners. I guess you live with Bekele, Geb or someone like this. Then tell the PR and the specific workout, I'm interested.
Did your friends get 800m jog? That rest is crazy. 800m jog is always around 3 to start and
One of Lagat's workouts in 2009 was 4X800 in 1:58 + 2X400, all with 2 minutes. He was a double medalist that year. If you're not faster than him, I doubt you could run 10X800 at that pace and recovery.
Many of us who coached in high school used a Daniels plan, but his books are for the average joe, not for elite level, and I doubt that everything scales as his books suggest. You simply wouldn't take a workout out of a book like that if you were really at the 13:00-13:45 level. You would have a coach who knew what he was doing.
coach d wrote:
One of Lagat's workouts in 2009 was 4X800 in 1:58 + 2X400, all with 2 minutes. He was a double medalist that year. If you're not faster than him, I doubt you could run 10X800 at that pace and recovery.
Many of us who coached in high school used a Daniels plan, but his books are for the average joe, not for elite level, and I doubt that everything scales as his books suggest. You simply wouldn't take a workout out of a book like that if you were really at the 13:00-13:45 level. You would have a coach who knew what he was doing.
Again that is 2 min recovery. Not 3:30-4 mins jogging. We are talking about double the recovery.