You didn't read the article. Quote "he identified HIMSELF"
You didn't read the article. Quote "he identified HIMSELF"
DC Area Runner wrote:
jjjjj wrote:so we have here 3:56/2:04/2:05/2:09 positives. Aside from the 2:09:57 guy, those are major players. Certainly punctures the myth of Ethiopian superiority. Remember that their best female and male athletes have been beating the Kenyans in major championships up and down the line for two decades.
And remember, Renato has insisted repeatedly that it wasn't top runners that were doing the doping. This argument is looking less and less likely as time goes on.
Renalto is my favorite poster. by far.
But in my opinion, he is, way way out of the loop on Peds.
EPO and related drugs mean a one or two second per lap improvement.
that includes 400m by the way. and what epo, hgh and a tad of testosterone does to a tiny asian woman? it takes her from a complete non-entity, to the most impressive track distance runner of all time.
i love watching ethiopian women especially,win races,and any ethiopian is good to watch,but sadly,i feel this is just the tip of a large iceberg.
Junior marathon WR-holder Tsegaye Mekonnen added to the head count. 2:04:3x at age 18; may be the biggest "get" so far.
Absolutely stunning, doped teenagers running 2:04.
jeff tallon wrote:
i love watching ethiopian women especially,win races,and any ethiopian is good to watch,but sadly,i feel this is just the tip of a large iceberg.
ok, but they aren't winning if they doped. Doped athletes need to have all results annulled and then the real winners declared
And remember, Renato has insisted repeatedly that it wasn't top runners that were doing the doping. This argument is looking less and less likely as time goes on.
Agreed. The revealed facts over the years are gradually dismantling his positions on the issue.
First it was Kenyans/Africans would never take any drugs even if they were very ill with diseases like malaria.
Then it was only C level Kenyans/African take drugs but the best would never take drugs and would never benefit from taking drugs because they were mentally strong and taking drugs would reduce their mental strength.
Now it is that his athletes would never take drugs and that things like EPO do not work on the very best Africans anyway ...
"I am very upset that a tweet under my name is posted last night: 'Tsegaye Mekonnen is also caught for doping'. Must be a sick joke... "
So what to believe now?
Somebody can just name someone on twitter, and newspapers pick that and run it without proper checking? I put Tsegaye Mekonnen in google search and selected "News", and top link was acutually a Eurosport link (in german) with the headline accusing him of doping.
If it was a European/US athlete, they will be get sued their ass off, but now....
The Law of Jude wrote:
Americans never dope. Never have either. They are completely clean.
Right.
truth be told. wrote:No one gives two s**** whether the Ethiopian is a 2:12 guy or 2:03 guy, drugs or not. No one will remember his name or care who he is. The American will actually generate interest from the public. Races need to stop bringing in Africans, period.
This thread is about the Ethiopian dopers, not American ones. In regards to Americans, they don't get caught at a rate of several in a week when testing is done for the first time. If serious testing were done in Ethiopia al the time, at this rate, we'd see 100+ drug cheats exposed, this is the tip of the iceberg. Serious testing is done in the US all the time. Whether there is corruption in the process, I don't know.
Nothing is news in this developpment. Mergia is slow runner. Not an elite runner in terms of EAST African talent pool basin. Other runner, 2:04, 2:05, never caught. Never will got caught. Why? Because not doping. Why not doping he? Because no benefit. With no benefit, doping is money of waste.
All this, slow runner getting caught, reaffirms and confirms my positions regarding doping in Africa or lack there off.
At some point, one would think, he must change his stance on the issue.
Just listened to this one in Amharic
http://www.diretube.com/ethiopia-lists-doping-cases-in-athletics_335d9f780.html
quick summary:
- it was a big shock to the public, because almost everyone thought that Ethiopian athlete were beyond that. There was one nice little poem saying something like "we don't need medals powered by powders"
- none of the suspected dopers had ever represented Ethiopia in international competitions
- the Ethiopian athletic federation is proposing to make dopers to be imprisoned apart from just being suspended (5 years is I think the proposed time). I don't know if this is going to apply for the current athletes under consideration or only for future dopers...
ethiopian wrote:
Just listened to this one in Amharic
http://www.diretube.com/ethiopia-lists-doping-cases-in-athletics_335d9f780.html- it was a big shock to the public, because almost everyone thought that Ethiopian athlete were beyond that. There was one nice little poem saying something like "we don't need medals powered by powders"
A poem?
In that case, they all must be clean.
Yeah, if it was a rap song the verdict would be "Guilty!"
trollism wrote:
ethiopian wrote:Just listened to this one in Amharic
http://www.diretube.com/ethiopia-lists-doping-cases-in-athletics_335d9f780.html- it was a big shock to the public, because almost everyone thought that Ethiopian athlete were beyond that. There was one nice little poem saying something like "we don't need medals powered by powders"
A poem?
In that case, they all must be clean.
yyy wrote:
At some point, one would think, he must change his stance on the issue.
It's not a stance, it is marketing. Unlike the doping-doesn't-work trolls on letsrun who are either high school idealists who read the words "running economy" in a Runner's World article and think they know the gig, or trolls who like to stir the pot baiting with illogical arguments, Renato has a brand to protect, and has been working to preserve its public image.
He is such an esteemed poster here through he putting up his athlete's training schedules, and writing good posts about training, that everyone forgets that he has vested interests in the sport being seen as clean, and his athletes seen as clean.
People put trust in him because he is on the inside. He talks about the training, the potential, and some of the gossip that wouldn't make its way to the US or Europe. And so they trust what he says about doping and anti-doping. But why should they, really? He is an insider, and needs the image of clean sport to stay employed. Of course he will sell the same myth as Lance or Gatlin.
It surprises me the way this conversation assumes that Renato is giving his honest opinion, and that his changing stance is a matter of serious reflection on the state of affairs, and not the back-tracking and defensiveness that is the all too familiar pattern in this sport.
Clerk wrote:
yyy wrote:At some point, one would think, he must change his stance on the issue.
It's not a stance, it is marketing. Unlike the doping-doesn't-work trolls on letsrun who are either high school idealists who read the words "running economy" in a Runner's World article and think they know the gig, or trolls who like to stir the pot baiting with illogical arguments, Renato has a brand to protect, and has been working to preserve its public image.
He is such an esteemed poster here through he putting up his athlete's training schedules, and writing good posts about training, that everyone forgets that he has vested interests in the sport being seen as clean, and his athletes seen as clean.
People put trust in him because he is on the inside. He talks about the training, the potential, and some of the gossip that wouldn't make its way to the US or Europe. And so they trust what he says about doping and anti-doping. But why should they, really? He is an insider, and needs the image of clean sport to stay employed. Of course he will sell the same myth as Lance or Gatlin.
It surprises me the way this conversation assumes that Renato is giving his honest opinion, and that his changing stance is a matter of serious reflection on the state of affairs, and not the back-tracking and defensiveness that is the all too familiar pattern in this sport.
Canova may be wrong, but he's not lying.
Clerk, I can't deny that there is a doping problem in Africa, such as in other Countries. But this can't change my position about the fact I don't believe doping can work with the best athletes, being in the same category : born, living and training in altitude.
There is no one scientific proof that EPO can help some top athlete running faster. There are only prooves that can enhance the blood values (specifically Hct and Hb), and there is the erroneus idea that this fact can determine better results.
I strongly contest this hypothesis. And I contest with facts, not with fried air.
Gelindo Bordin won OG in Seoul (Marathon) with 39.7 (Hct) and 12.8 (Hb).
Christopher Koskei won 3000 st in Sevilla (1999) in WCh with 39.8 and less than 13.
The Chinese athletes who improved dramatically in Asian Games 2014 after more than two months of training in altitude competed with values LOWER than before going to altitude, while the athletes with enhanced values were not able to better their PB.
Arne Gabius has in his BP no fluctuation, the same values between 41.5 and 42.5 of Hct, and between 14.2 and 14.6 of Hb, in several tests, OOC and in competition, and with the same values he was sometimes in his best shape, sometimes in very bad shape.
When we look at training only, when athletes improve their performances ALWAYS their blood values decrease, as effect of training, so there is no reason to think that, if we enhance the values, one athlete can run faster.
I'm 100% certain that athletes as Shaheen (WR holder of steeple) and Nicholas Kemboi (26'30" in 10000m) didn't use any supplement, also legal, because we lived together not only in the same apartment, but in the same room, and I perfectly know what they ate and drink, and their behavior.
How can I believe that EPO can give the advantages many suppose to have, about 7-8 sec in 3000m (so with EPO the WR could be 7'45") and till one minute in 10000m (so Nicholas with EPO could run 25'30") ? This is out of every logic.
I don't deny that with blood doping it's possible to enhance the blood values.
I deny that this is a fundamental point for the performance of top level, while can help athletes with less talent and less training to reach levels superior their current possibility.
There is no blood doping that can produce better results of a hard, advanced and proper training for endurance events. The problem is not in the ability to transport Oxygen, but in the quantity of Oxygen athletes are able to catch from the air (affinity between Hb and Oxygen, nothing to do with EPO), and this is the reason athletes Always in altitude have a different behavior and different values : they have ADAPTATION, not REACTION.
Different situation when we talk about steroids and similar. I well know that, with training only, it's not possible to reach the same level of muscle power we can reach using steroids, too. So, please, when we speak about blood doping, don't mix everything misunderstanding my words : I never said general doping doesn't work with top kenyan and ethiopian, I ALWAYS SAID (and here I repeat again) THAT BLOOD DOPING DOESN'T WORK WITH TOP TALENTED ATHLETES BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE. This is a different issue.
The most part of people working as physiologists or in antidoping (I don't want to speak about LR posters...) NEVER had the opportunity to work with the best athletes in the world, to test them, to see their training, AND TO KNOW WHAT AN ADVANCED TRAINING FOR ELITE CHAMPIONS IS.
I can't accept as scientific any test where is generally written that the subject were "Elite athletes well trained", because who makes these tests doesn't have any idea of who is ELITE (in some research about Marathon, elite are considered male athletes running under 2:40 !), what elite means, and of their training. So, there are not researches regarding the specific subject.
The fact that 3 athletes in top 100 al time can be positive doesn't means that thid type of doping is effective, since there is no proof the same athletes could run faster WITHOUT doping, suche as there is no proof that all the other clean athletes in the list could not run faster WITH doping.
I strongly recuse the idea doping can help the best athletes (this doping : the doped russian used roids every time, and the best female had a different muscle strength than clean athletes). I also recuse to compare athletics with cyclism : the doping of Lance Armstrong (who everytime is considered the best example for showing doping works) was a cocktail of a lot of different substances, prepared in scientific way, and costing more than hundred thousand dollars per year, while the doping of kenyans of third level is something very cheap, since many of them don't earn 3000 USD in one year.
I invite scientists and physiologists who REALLY want to discover what happens in the body, and all the physiological variations induced by the altitude (not episodic, but for people LIVING and TRAINING in that situation)
to come Iten, to stay with the best athletes for six months, doing all the test and the researches they want to do. Looking at the current situation, I'm sure all the best athletes accept to be tested every week, not only for some doping substance, but also for studying the effects of their training on their physiology.
Maybe I can appear as naive, or too smart (if somebody thinks I want to cover doping of my athletes). Instead, simply, I'm on the ground, I'm one of the collaborator of IAAF antidoping for cleaning our sport, but I know data and situations that ALL the scientists involved in antidoping, and of course ALL the posters and Readers of LR, obviously don't know, because to work with the best in the world in Kenya or Ethiopia is not their profession, neither their passion, and their specific experiences are only about what they can read, written by other peoplr without any specific experience.
kvothe wrote:
In regards to Americans, they don't get caught at a rate of several in a week when testing is done for the first time.
Because they are never testing positive. Maybe clean-ish, maybe Nike money, there's no way to know with basic governance so poorly executed.
If you bothered to look at WADA's 2014 testing statistics you'd see a number of urine tests in and out of competition and a whole 220-something ABP blood tests for every IAAF discipline, worldwide.
At least USADA took the right step early on and posts athlete level national testing frequency. The same cannot be said for other Western countries like the UK.
pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:
kvothe wrote:In regards to Americans, they don't get caught at a rate of several in a week when testing is done for the first time.
Because they are never testing positive. Maybe clean-ish, maybe Nike money, there's no way to know with basic governance so poorly executed.
If you bothered to look at WADA's 2014 testing statistics you'd see a number of urine tests in and out of competition and a whole 220-something ABP blood tests for every IAAF discipline, worldwide.
At least USADA took the right step early on and posts athlete level national testing frequency. The same cannot be said for other Western countries like the UK.
Meaning, why in the world is Ethiopia being picked out of the very thin stack of tests now? Why now? I don't really know. The pessimist in me says it's the Captain Renault moment for the IAAF. They need to sacrifice a few to regain some credibility and quietly let Russia compete in Rio.
Renato Canova wrote:
The Chinese athletes who improved dramatically in Asian Games 2014 after more than two months of training in altitude competed with values LOWER than before going to altitude, while the athletes with enhanced values were not able to better their PB.
These Chinese athletes would have been lapped several times in a 10000m race when compared to the Chinese athletes 20 years earlier who were taking a cocktail of PEDs including EPO....