Foot Locker admits to adding 70 meters to South Regional course

I'm an active course measurer for road races and peruse the RRTC bulletin board regularly. (http://measure.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x if you are interested.) Despite what I've read here a couple times and in a few other places connected with XC season, I do not believe the RRTC has approved a method for certifying XC courses as of yet. I have seen course maps made to the same standards you see on the USATF road races certified courses list, for example Fairmount Park in Philadelphia, but I have not actually seen any certification paperwork for those courses. You can search for courses here:

http://www.usatf.org/events/courses/search/

. If you find any XC courses I'd love to take a look at the maps.

Given the requirements for measurement as well as the calibration needed, I don't see how one could measure a course for certification using the traditional Jones Counter on a bicycle method. The only way I could see measuring an XC course for certification would be using a steel tape, which would be hugely onerous for any XC course. And as noted above, around corners would be an issue with most tapes.

And then you have the issue of setting up an XC course to the measured standards. The map I saw for Fairmount Park went into great detail for some areas, which made it seem do-able, but for most courses I don't see that as a possibility without establishing permanent markers/posts.

To me, wheel out your XC course, get it as close as you reasonably can, then go race it. If it's 5000m or 4960 or 5050 who cares? As a coach it's always nice to know if a course was a little short or a little long, but unless we're talking 7500m for an "8k XC" course or hundreds of meters long I've never felt the need to know exactly.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Poor eater wrote:

Not true if the course has a larger number of turns and twists. A steel tape works well on flat courses with minimal turns.

Here's the long thread I found about the issue, note it is from 2010, so I am not sure what the state of the art is now. Maybe David Katz or Dukerdog or some one else with significant experience can add to this:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3748320

On this website, it says McAlpine is 5028 meters. Considering the 2008 copyright on the website and the 2010 thread, this measurement is probably based off the original course. This year it could be 2098 meters!

NFHS rules have changed on how to measure a course since that article/thread, but no actual process/procedure is given . Went from center of the course to shortest route, but that is the extent of their course measuring technique.

DiscoGary wrote:

Poor eater wrote:

Not true if the course has a larger number of turns and twists. A steel tape works well on flat courses with minimal turns.

What method is better?

Calibrated surveyor's wheel. Add in the USATF short course calculation factor if you want to have it valid for USATF records, which isn't needed for high school level events.

Surveyed wheel bounces and wobbles way too much to have the level of accuracy needed for certification.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Surveyed wheel bounces and wobbles way too much to have the level of accuracy needed for certification.

This. Calibration would help, but it's still to unpredictable.

I saw it done on a 3 mile course and it took under two hours. If you have two guys who know what they are doing it goes along pretty smoothly and there's no time wasted doing calibrations.

Wendy in accounting wrote:

So is it now a full 5K marathon?

LOL

With the information that 70 meters were added to the old course only seems to mean one thing, even assuming corners were shortened over the years.

It is even more obvious than before that Drew Hunter would need to catch pneumonia before the race to lose

Bring back the 10000 wrote:

With the information that 70 meters were added to the old course only seems to mean one thing, even assuming corners were shortened over the years.

It is even more obvious than before that Drew Hunter would need to catch pneumonia before the race to lose

God I hope he goes for the course record. 14:36 might be impossible, but it would be cool to see him in the low 14:40s. I'm such a fanboy right now, and I don't even care.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Surveyed wheel bounces and wobbles way too much to have the level of accuracy needed for certification.

You just need to know how to use it. A little downward pressure and a brisk walk at 3 - 4 mph can create a very smooth line for someone that has some experience in this field.

What's the length of the tape? I'm guessing 50m? Were there no turns or hills? What's the name of the crew/company that was able to pull off that feat? I would like to hire them if they are as good as you say.

Poor eater wrote:

DiscoGary wrote:

I saw it done on a 3 mile course and it took under two hours. If you have two guys who know what they are doing it goes along pretty smoothly and there's no time wasted doing calibrations.

What's the length of the tape? I'm guessing 50m? Were there no turns or hills? What's the name of the crew/company that was able to pull off that feat? I would like to hire them if they are as good as you say.

See here:

Great information! Interesting that one measurement was based on an assumed 12' wide course, and the other based on an estimated 20' wide course. Isn't the actual State Meet course much wider than both of those figures?

Good luck finding enough people who know how to do measurements like that fast and efficiently...

How do you stretch a steel tape over hilly undulating surfaces and on courses that have a lot of turns?

Poor eater wrote:

What's the length of the tape? I'm guessing 50m? Were there no turns or hills? What's the name of the crew/company that was able to pull off that feat? I would like to hire them if they are as good as you say.

Ask and you shall receive:

These are the guys who measured our State course. They will travel to your course. They are pros and they are eager to measure courses with a legacy.

They will be able to answer all your questions. I know, because I asked them all the questions that have been asked here, and I came away completely convinced that this is the best way to measure a course.

I'm a Stat Geek. We measured the course in about 6 different ways while they were doing their thing. If I thought these guys were fudging stuff I would have called them on it. I didn't see anything wrong with what they did.

Oh, they used either a 50 or 60 meter tape, a tension gauge, a whole bunch of little flags with the meter markings increasing by 50 or 60 meters each as they went (to avoid miscounting the increments), and some cones to clearly mark the turn tangents. It's a low cost simple way to do it, but you need two people.

Poor eater wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Surveyed wheel bounces and wobbles way too much to have the level of accuracy needed for certification.

You just need to know how to use it. A little downward pressure and a brisk walk at 3 - 4 mph can create a very smooth line for someone that has some experience in this field.

Well, I don't think a surveyor's wheel is an approved measuring device for any course. So, even if you can use it accurately, it wouldn't get you any farther down the road of getting a certification. I haven't seen anything that leads me to conclude that a surveyor's wheel is more accurate than a Jones counter.

If you are arguing that it is accurate enough and we should not worry about certification for XC courses, then I agree with you.