Villanova - 3 individual qualifiers but no team at NCAAs

Based on the way the qualifying system is set up, you will never have the best 31 men's and women's teams at nationals. In all honesty if you wanted the best teams there, the at large teams would be selected based on how they did during the season/at regionals in a similar fashion to how the NCAA Basketball tournament is filled out. There would be a team here or there would feel snubbed but people wouldn't have to worry about chasing points or beating teams from weaker regions (South/South Central) but would still be advantageous to run against good competition to build a resume for the national meet. You could even make it so that a team could not qualify if a team that beat them at regionals doesn't also qualify.

In 1996 Villanova women did send a team, and finished 2nd at Nationals. You may be thinking of 1997, when the team did not qualify, but Villanova sent Carrie Tollefson (who won the individual title) and Carmen Douma (who finished 6th overall). Villanova women sent 2 individuals as well in 1982 (Yerkes 46th, McGowan 67th) and 1987 (Huber 9th, Franey 55th). As far as I know, Villanova women have never sent 3 individual at-large runners.

On the Villanova men's side, they've sent 2 individual runners 4 different times: 1948 (Ross 3rd, Thompson 17th), 1961 (Zwolak 14th, Traynor 82nd), 1965 (Messenger 12th DQ, Patrick 17th), and 1974 (McCarey 61st, Coghlan 186th). This year will be the first time, if my records are correct, that the Villanova men have sent 3 individuals without the team qualifying.

Ben Petrella committed to West Point on November 7. Blaise Ferro still in play. I think.

Kevin Hadsell wrote:

Scratch that...

In 2001, Cornell women had FOUR individual qualifiers and no team at the meet. I remember that Lou Doussing brought the fifth runner and tried to petition the NCAA to allow her to run.

That's never happened before or since.

I wrote my Cornell buddies. They said there were 3 women in 1999 - Emily Germano, Meredith Freimer and Kim Chatman.

Never 4.

Kevin Hadsell wrote:

Scratch that...

In 2001, Cornell women had FOUR individual qualifiers and no team at the meet. I remember that Lou Doussing brought the fifth runner and tried to petition the NCAA to allow her to run.

That's never happened before or since.

One other note from the Cornell peeps. In 2001, they had a full team and were 30th. Never made that petition to the NCAA.

Rojo, you should remember this one - 2005 Northeast region. Providence sent 3 individuals but didn't make it as a team. Two Cornell guys, Brad Baird and Bruce Hyde, would have been the next two in had Providence made it as a team

Furman isn't a good school to target. They automatically qualified last year with a group of freshman with a program that had never qualified! How about the South region where sorry Florida State won and auto'd? Marcus's arrogance that they save if for the end of the season backfired. He could've gone to Wisconsin (and they certainly have the budget to do so), run average, beat several teams easily, and then be in to the meet.

I feel sorry for the occasional school who cant afford to go to pre-nationals/Wisconsin, but not a school like Villanova.

They played it undercover and it blew up in their faces.

"crying me a river" you must not know what arrogance means because 1) anyone who knows Marcus, knows how incredibly humble he is. And humble - humility- is the opposite of arrogance. 2) how is "save if (sp? it?) for the end of the season" arrogant? It sounds calculative and confident (or trusting) in the training.

Nobody cares if you do or don't feel bad, but don't go around accusing a great coach and human of being arrogant when you most certainly don't know him, nor do you offer any legitimate support of your claim.

The 5th runner is the most important runner on the team, as they account for the most points. If your top runner has a slightly off day and finishes 10 seconds slower than normal, they might lose a few places. If your 5th runner has a slightly off day and finishes 10 seconds slower than normal, that could easily be 10+ places due to the thickness of the field further back.

asdadsfa wrote:

I think that is what makes it an almost:) Obviosly would have had to beaten the penn state guy and the region would need a 5th qualifer.

I always find it amazing when a team needs there 5th man to be like 4 seconds faster to qualify.

The poster was saying that you can live and die by the strategy to keep training/trusting training/believe in your guys/etc.

Villanova died by that as it relates to qualifying a team to NCAA's and the poster is correct.

They get good young guys from the U.S. but their heavy hitters have always been the foreigners.

Thanks for the fact check, always nice to see.

They put no effort into "playing the game" They probably assumed that they would place top 2 in their region and not need to race anybody other than Georgetown all season. They also probably thought Georgetown would be a mess this year, and they haven't been. O'Sullivan could have gone to 1 meet (Louisville, Pre-Nats, Wisco) and they would have likely made NCAAs. It also hurt them that the Big East only has 1 team at NCAAs this year. Placing 2nd doesn't get you any points anymore with Providence being off this year at regionals and Syracuse being in the ACC.

This is a little off topic as it relates to HS but...in PA teams qualify for the PIAA State meet via Districts. District 12 consists primarily of the public and parochial schools in Philadelphia (Phila Public and Catholic Leagues). Depending on division (based upon enrollment) - the number of teams/individuals that qualify are dictated by the PIAA. In 2012 District 12 AAA (largest schools) had 1 team and 5 individual qualifying slots. Cardinal O'Hara won (they would go on to lose the AAA State meet on a tie-breaker) but LaSalle qualified their top 5 guys via the individual slots (first 5 non-O'Hara finishers).

At States LaSalle would go on to finish 5th as a team without actually qualifying a team for the meet.

It has happened. UNCG qualified 3 men, Paul chelimo, Paul Katam, and Joey Thompson in 2011

Georgetown did it in 79'

John Gregorek

Phillip Reilly

Kevin Byrne

Johnny I believe was top 20 and Phil and I finished behind him. Way behind him.

This happens quite a bit as some regions are so tight team score wise that the team that doesn't make it gets 3 runners to to the championships..

Lots of programs have a solid 3 runners with teamates fighting on there team to fill 4 and 5.. My suggestion to schools who have this problem..try to recruit any top 25 Ontario Canada runners who hasn't been recruited from other schools and BY year 3 you'll have that solid 4-5 runner..if the school starts this strategy next year and does it every year you'll have a contending team by 2018 and for decades to come..top 10 Ontario runners who get recruited usually place in top 30 before they graduated with a select few cracking top 15 and the elite cracking top 5...but those who get overlooked could indeed crack 50-75 if given a chance BY year 3..making your team always have those bottom runners to score well with your top 3...just a thought

Kevin Hadsell wrote:

Scratch that...

In 2001, Cornell women had FOUR individual qualifiers and no team at the meet. I remember that Lou Doussing brought the fifth runner and tried to petition the NCAA to allow her to run.

That's never happened before or since.

What about FIVE individual qualifiers and no team? Bet that's never happened before?

notwhatarrogancemeans wrote:

"crying me a river" you must not know what arrogance means because 1) anyone who knows Marcus, knows how incredibly humble he is. And humble - humility- is the opposite of arrogance. 2) how is "save if (sp? it?) for the end of the season" arrogant? It sounds calculative and confident (or trusting) in the training.

Nobody cares if you do or don't feel bad, but don't go around accusing a great coach and human of being arrogant when you most certainly don't know him, nor do you offer any legitimate support of your claim.

Agreed, Marcus is a gentleman, world champion, mentor, great coach, and first class individual. Wish he were coaching at a school (Villanova is academically very sound but bells and whistles it is not) that could entice more US athletes that look for bells and whistles. Best of luck to Marcus and his Villanova athletes.