She tested positive while on vacation after Berlin. That doesn't sound like EPO, it sounds like she drank the wrong energy drink while out clubbing or ate a mexican steak. We don't know what she tested positive for, so we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions yet.
The Champ wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Kwelio_ChemlanyWhat about this guy? Trained under Mick Byrne and couldn't break 14min for 5000m. After stagnating on the roads in the USA for years he moves back to Kenya for 'altitude training' and runs 2:06.
That's an unusual-looking running resume. He worked his way from a 2:20:57 1st marathon all the way down to a 2:06:24 in what looks to have been about his 18th marathon, if I'm reading the Wiki entry correctly.
After stagnating on the roads in the USA for years he moves back to Kenya for 'altitude training' and runs 2:06.
You call this stagnating on the roads in the USA for years? #Jelly?
Graduates in 2006
2007: 67:19
2008: 64:39 (Marathon Debut of 2:20:57)
2009: 62:56, 2:16:14
Moves to Kenya
2010: 2:13:23, 2:13:10
2011: 2:10:02,
2012: 2:10:88
2013: 2:07:44
2014: 2:06:24
2015: 2:08:21
I totally agree on the above post on Stephen C. Defiantly more then just Altitude training for sure! I got the privilege to meet him in the warm up area at the MS Blues marathon, Nice Guy, but anyone that is affiliated with that West Chester TC raise Suspicion just as the WSX training group does. There is no Doubt these athletes are on drugs, which ones, we don't know but if we could get these smaller races to give out some surprise drug test, that would I AM SURE eliminate these Club Athletes from racing and taking honest money from hard working CLEAN athletes! Anyone remember Alene Reta he was busted back in the day and was affiliated with that NY club as well, then changed his name to prevent being busted from races. IF I was a RD I would do Exactly what NYC did this weekend, NOT Allow Suspicion Drug Cheats into there Races, as NY did with the Russians! Great to see this, but we need more test to be done, at the smaller races as well, Help clean up the sport even more and get these bums back to there country. Not Racist, just Saying.
Houserocker wrote:
In retrospect, it looks blindingly obvious - half-decent collegiate runner moves to Croatia, becomes world class - that just screams doping.
Really, anybody improving massively that late in their career draws suspicion. Maybe if they barely trained in college, then suddenly dedicated their lives to running, it would be plausible. But to be honest, I've barely heard of Lisa Nemec, and had no idea she had a prior identity as an unremarkable US collegiate athlete. I can see how she flew under the radar for most people.
The main lesson I take from this case, though, is that I'm really impressed at how effective those drugs (EPO presumably?) were! That's quite a transformation. I'm a guy, not very fast in college, but a fair chunk faster than Nemec's college times for 5k/10k. I trained pretty hard for the marathon, and my best was low 2:30s. I would have loved to hit a 2:25, and was nowhere near doing it. That's some powerful stuff.
Great post.
I hadn't thought of it that way (in comparing it to men's times). Her marathon PB is almost as good as mine. I'd like to think I'd at least have been able to dominate the Ivy League women's competition if I'd run collegiately.
And yes, she wasn't some non-running Kenyan who picked up the sport at age 20.
-Rojo
Maybe one reason you'd never heard of her was her name in college and US HS was Lisa Stublic but then again most 16:30 collegians aren't big house hold names.
I totally agree on the above post on Stephen C. Defiantly more then just Altitude training for sure! I got the privilege to meet him in the warm up area at the MS Blues marathon, Nice Guy, but anyone that is affiliated with that West Chester TC raise Suspicion just as the WSX training group does. There is no Doubt these athletes are on drugs, which ones, we don't know but if we could get these smaller races to give out some surprise drug test, that would I AM SURE eliminate these Club Athletes from racing and taking honest money from hard working CLEAN athletes! Anyone remember Alene Reta he was busted back in the day and was affiliated with that NY club as well, then changed his name to prevent being busted from races. IF I was a RD I would do Exactly what NYC did this weekend, NOT Allow Suspicion Drug Cheats into there Races, as NY did with the Russians! Great to see this, but we need more test to be done, at the smaller races as well, Help clean up the sport even more and get these bums back to there country. Not Racist, just Saying.
The Champ wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Kwelio_ChemlanyWhat about this guy? Trained under Mick Byrne and couldn't break 14min for 5000m. After stagnating on the roads in the USA for years he moves back to Kenya for 'altitude training' and runs 2:06.
Managed by Federico Rosa, and had been coached by Claudio Berardelli, the coach even the Rosa Associati deemed too dirty.
From 3.1 @ 5:20 to 26.2 @ 5:33 by way of a country that is 120 miles south of East Germany. How's that
What chemicals would you take after a hard marathon, to stimulate growth and repair muscle.
rojo wrote:
Houserocker wrote:In retrospect, it looks blindingly obvious - half-decent collegiate runner moves to Croatia, becomes world class - that just screams doping.
Really, anybody improving massively that late in their career draws suspicion. Maybe if they barely trained in college, then suddenly dedicated their lives to running, it would be plausible. But to be honest, I've barely heard of Lisa Nemec, and had no idea she had a prior identity as an unremarkable US collegiate athlete. I can see how she flew under the radar for most people.
The main lesson I take from this case, though, is that I'm really impressed at how effective those drugs (EPO presumably?) were! That's quite a transformation. I'm a guy, not very fast in college, but a fair chunk faster than Nemec's college times for 5k/10k. I trained pretty hard for the marathon, and my best was low 2:30s. I would have loved to hit a 2:25, and was nowhere near doing it. That's some powerful stuff.
Great post.
I hadn't thought of it that way (in comparing it to men's times). Her marathon PB is almost as good as mine. I'd like to think I'd at least have been able to dominate the Ivy League women's competition if I'd run collegiately.
And yes, she wasn't some non-running Kenyan who picked up the sport at age 20.
-Rojo
Maybe one reason you'd never heard of her was her name in college and US HS was Lisa Stublic but then again most 16:30 collegians aren't big house hold names.
Remarkable improvement, but how much of that can be attributed to drugs? I'd like to know what drug will turn a 16:30 guy into a 2:25 marathoner. That would be nice.
I called bullsh$€ when she popped the fast 'thon's after she moved to Croatia-- saw her run in HS-- was a Footlocker XC finalist and a descent but not special runner in college.... No surprise she was finally caught
Chemlany showed very good potential when he was recruited by IC-- raced hurt most of the time and didn't get a chance to show it-- he beat down Webb at Boston Mayor's Cup and gave the back of the hand to a solid field at the 10k in Middletown,NY, after some solid uninterrupted training. He had a visa issue, had to go home, and started putting up progressive results I believe at a marathon in Isreal... Got better every time-- and that pr happened while rabbiting if I remember correctly (or he did the year before, came back the next year and delivered the steak)- I would not count on seeing him make a national team (am I wrong on that?)
And dead wrong about dirty Westchester runners... I assure you
I'm going to step in here and defend Lisa. If you read to the end of this post and you want to run a good marathon you'll pick up some very valuable info on how to do it right.
Sure, you've heard this before but I'll say it now regarding this athlete: if there's ever anyone who went about doing it right, it would be Lisa. I would question her coach's background but only because I don't know anything about him.
I saw her run that 10,000 meters at Penn Relays. She went out too hard and died. I surmised she could have run in the 33's and that was Junior year. Some people, few, are really built physiologically for the marathon. She's one of them. People are overreacting: 2:25 isn't world class, it's on the cusp.
I've communicated with her about her training because frankly everyone wanted to know the secret. What will stay with me is her comment that marathon training is a completely different sport from track. Almost no running paced at faster than 10 mile race pace. Beginning training by getting an idea of where you are vis a vis your ability to burn fat-sub 120 bpm running. Beginning with only 9 minute mile running...until you develop the ability to run sub 7:30 pace at that pulse rate. 120 mile weeks and four hour runs help too. Most marathoners coming to marathon training from a track background don't assimilate this critical piece of info into their training--that they actually MUST RUN SLOWLY to improve. It's so counter-intuitive to our work ethic. But she got it right.
Please let due process run its course. There are false positives after all.
props to the croatian doping agency, big name, she would never get busted in countries like the us
acirum wrote:
props to the croatian doping agency, big name, she would never get busted in countries like the us
You're joking right? We've busted Mary Slaney, Regina Jacobs, Tyson Gay and Justin Gatlin. Yeah the Olympic 100 champ isn't a big name.
I think the stupidest thing I see on this thread is this quote from rojo
I even thought, "An Ivy Leaguer wouldn't dope in running would they?"
That is just dumb. As if being in the ivy league makes you morally superior. Reminds me of 'oh, floyd landis wouldn't dope, he is from a devout mennonite family'
Acirum,
Consider this: YOU'RE EXACTLY WRONG. Why? Because if you know something about a small country's athletic establishment you know it's a place with very limited budgets and lots of jealousy and it's precisely this kind of environment where a false positive will be used to harm a successful coach's reputation. Am I right in this case? I have no idea. Why don't we just wait for the dust to settle before racing to conclusions.
Former Columbia Runner wrote:
I saw her run that 10,000 meters at Penn Relays. She went out too hard and died. I surmised she could have run in the 33's and that was Junior year. Some people, few, are really built physiologically for the marathon. She's one of them. People are overreacting: 2:25 isn't world class, it's on the cusp.
all.
Look, she very well may be innocent but your defense of her times isn't helping. 2:25 is world class at least for white people. If she was American, she'd be the 6th FASTEST AMERICAN EVER.
Yes, some women can keep paces for a long long time, but come on. You think she could have run in the 33s in college and you think that's anything CLOSE to 2:25?
According to JK, her marathon pb is equivalent to 30:49 for 10,000.
According to McMillan, her marathon pb is equivalent to 31:04.
That's not even REMOTELY CLOSE TO 33:59 LET ALONE 33:00.
In terms of 5k, it's equivalent to sub-15:00 for both of them. So we're talking nearly 30 seconds per mile equivalent than what she did in college.
Do we know what she tested positive for?
Prove us wrong ?
Rojo and others - I also really hope this is a false-positive because it takes what would be a great, positive, and inspiring story and turns it entirely around.
However, I wouldn't take her improvement and times as reason alone to doubt her. If it comes out that the tests prove that she was doping, then that's that, but unlike Mike Rossi, I don't see this improvement as impossible.
I think there are many more people who COULD see the type of improvement you see with Lisa, if they had the time, resources, and motivation to train - particularly when moving from the track to the marathon. I myself am someone who is now running much faster than my college PBs would have indicated (I'm nowhere near her level, but I qualified for the Trials in the marathon 18 months out of college and I was never an all-american in Division 3). The point is that people develop at different rates and some people really are built for the marathon. I think it's too bad that these kind of success stories are often overshadowed by doping, as it implies that it's impossible to make big gains after college without PED usage.
We'll see how this plays out, but for the sake of all the late-bloomers and slow-developers out there, I'll hope that it's a false positive.
Robert,
I'm glad you responded. I actually met you at the World XC champs in Amman, Jordan several years back.
Let me make a few points. First of all, her improvement is remarkable. It calls to mind...your brother! I've read, so many times, how Weldon, who trained hard but not smart in college, finally found the right way thanks to John Kellogg. I would simply say that Lisa did the same thing- a radical departure from track training which was appropriate in college. As I mentioned, look at what she does. Training the fat-burning system, no track workouts as far as I know. Let's do some time comparisons because like you I'm amazed at how slow she is...and how fast she is at the marathon.
Let's look at Paula Radcliffe, Shalane Flanagan, and Lisa. Specifically the comparison between their 10k times and marathons and how they relate in terms of scoring tables and how close their pace over the marathon comes to their 10k pace.
I'm using Gardner and Purdy to compare times.
Paula:
30:01 (906)...2:15:25 (962)
much better marathon performance, 20 second time differential.
Shalane:
30:22 (888)...2:21:14 (894)
Shalane went out too hard at Berlin. Really she was capable of mid 2:20 that day (900), but going with actual performance:
Almost the same performance, 29 second differential.
Lisa
No track 10 km since college. It's too bad because it would give us a better basis of comparison. My hunch is she'd be very close to 32 flat (805). If that's true than the differential for her is 24 seconds...half way between Paula's and Shalane's.
half marathon:
1:09:18 (844)...2:25:44 (845)
Identical performances over the two distances. Her comments after the half were that her breathing was fine but she couldn't turn her legs over any faster...and a short time later she ran 2:25.
Observations:
Paula's marathon is much better than her 10k.
Shalane's 10k and her marathon are very similar.
Lisa's marathon and half marathon are very similar.
Based on Shalane's American record at 15k I'd say Lisa is ten seconds per mile slower than Shalane both at the marathon and half marathon.
It's Paula's performance that stands out here as suspicious. But one can argue that physiologically Paula is clearly a marathoner. I've often thought Shalane needs to slow down her long runs but that's just a hunch. She comes from a stellar track background, perhaps she runs too hard. She could improve her marathon in relation to her 10k. Or perhaps she cannot because her natural talent lies at 10k-15k.
I am saying that Lisa has fulfilled her potential through smart training. Shalane may not have. And as for Paula, that subject's been written about extensively.