Run with Marathon Pacers or just Pace Yourself

What marathon?

My experience is that inexperienced pacers go too fast in the early going to bank time not realizing that the people they are leading have trained for a more reasonable pace.

If your marathon has a CLIF Bar pace team pacer that has been doing it for a couple of years (and knows the course), you should be in good shape. They all have a recent marathon that is at least 15 minutes faster than the group they are pacing and it is often more than that.

"I guess what I meant is that running a negative split is hard, and I don't plan on racing that way. "

Going out hard and dying is NOT a race strategy.

Go for the negative split, it's the best way to race a marathon.

how good are you at pacing?

are you confident that you won't start too fast? the best thing a pacer can do is to keep you from starting too fast.

i've paced several times and pacees usually fall into two groups... those that fall off and those that run away in the late miles. very few folks stay with the pacer all the way

i strongly suggest communicating with the pacer(s) if possible to learn what their pacing plan is.

before you plan on a negative split - look at race results see how common or uncommon negative splits are for your chosen course

i don't agree that planning on a negative split is the best approach. Pete Pfitzinger argues that for most of us, a very slight positive split will likely produce the best result

if you have the opportunity to run 20 miles drafting behind a pace group and have nothing to think about/worry about aside from taking fluids and gels and monitoring how your body feels etc, it's way less energy than going on your own. get comfortable running in a group, sit back and get pulled along, and be mentally ready at mile 20-21 for the real race to begin...let the group block the wind and guide you to where the marathon actually starts.seems like a no-brainer to me... i know it sounds cheesy, but marathons really are 20 mile runs with a 10k race at the end.

crammingrunning wrote:

Say you want to run a 3:05 Marathon do you typically run with a pace group that the race offers or do you think it's better to just pace yourself with your own watch. This way causing less volatility in the pacing miles and therefore running a more even race that helps you in the long run..

Once wanted to run the 3:05 BQ. Was in shape for it ... not an issue at all. I just wanted to make sure my pacing was good. This was before GPS watches were common enough. Saw the guy holding the sign and he mentioned "smooth and steady .... I want people to know that if they are ahead of me, they are ahead of 3:05 pace."

I thought ...great - stick with him and see what happens. 3:05 pace is 7:03 miles. This was not a super-competitive marathon, but it is a larger one. There was plenty of room to run by the first quarter mile. Crowding was not an issue. And the course is flat.

I think we went out in 6:48, then a 7:25, the whole time, this guy kept trying to correct his mistakes and taking the runners/lemmings with him. On the third mile when he tried to correct and run sub 7:03 (It felt like he was back in 6:50 land), I just let him go and tried to focus on myself. Best decision I could have made.

Point is - pacers are great, but don't rely on them to be perfect. Unless you've run with the pacer during training, you have no idea how he is going to run the first 5 miles - and that is where your marathon can be made or broken. Train for the pace you need to run and do what you have to so that you can recognize that you are on this pace from the getgo. I've even jumped in 5Ks the week before my goal marathon to practice starting with runners who "take off" - while I go out on my marathon pace and hope to hit it perfectly by mile 1.

We always train for MP, but being able to isolate yourself from everyone else at the start, lock in, and do your thing is a challenge and you need to work on it.

JYD wrote:

crammingrunning wrote:

Yeah I ran 1 marathon were there were actually a pacer for the first 13.1 and then another for the second 13.1. The second 13.1 pacer of the marathon took off like a bat out of hell and ran a negative split. Just kinda annoying since "most" people don't and really can't run a negative split...

Having 2 pacers sounds like the worst idea ever. What race was this?

Most races have two pacers these days.

I might do that just run in the back of the pace group, monitor the mile to mile pace, let them block the wind and figure it out at mile 20....

repeatpacer wrote:

i don't agree that planning on a negative split is the best approach. Pete Pfitzinger argues that for most of us, a very slight positive split will likely produce the best result

I know I'm just a peon but... the negative split is the way to go. Think of it this way, would you rather be hanging on for dear life or hard charging over that last 5k? If you feel great you can always run faster, if you are just hanging on marathon times tend to drop in BIG hunks. So you go from consistent 650's to 710 740, to staggering in at 850. When it goes- it goes big.

BlastedMaster wrote:

repeatpacer wrote:

i don't agree that planning on a negative split is the best approach. Pete Pfitzinger argues that for most of us, a very slight positive split will likely produce the best result

I know I'm just a peon but... the negative split is the way to go. Think of it this way, would you rather be hanging on for dear life or hard charging over that last 5k? If you feel great you can always run faster, if you are just hanging on marathon times tend to drop in BIG hunks. So you go from consistent 650's to 710 740, to staggering in at 850. When it goes- it goes big.

I guess the question is how much of a negative split, and if your running a negative split, did you run at MP for the first half of the race or do/did you just run slower than MP for the first half? Just curious

In an ideal scenario, a "very slight positive" split would mean you knew with absolute certainty you had reached your physical limit and could do no more. For example, for the times under discussion here, say 7:00 for 24 and 25 and then 7:05 pace for 26 and the .2 - clearly having reached the limit and hanging on, but not blown up.

Doing it that precisely seems improbable, and in the marathon, mental energy is usually more the issue than physical.

Earlier comments had a great point about being in an attacking mode late, after mile 20, as a mental boost. Excepting very experienced, meticulously trained runners who know their exact limits, I'm a big believer in the negative split.

As to pacers, I have done that many times, and I have seen many others do it both well and less well. A good pacer will be someone you can trust to do the simple arithmetic and make adjustments for the course, and leave you mentally unchallenged for most of the run as you roll along unconcerned about pace, position, and what is to come until late.

You'll know a good pacer based in the pre-race briefing and conversations in the corral. The pacer will have run the course and know it well enough to give you specific, but not obsessive, plans for gaining and losing time based on terrain and conditions. I have seen weaker leaders who create stress - OCD on hitting intervals exactly, dwelling on if another group is too close or far, too serious, etc. - and that's no good. If the pacer is uptight, you're going to feed on that and get uptight too. If pre-race you see a fidgety guy talking way too much, stay a ways off and just use the group as a pace check. The pacer should relax the group, assure, encourage, entertain, and do whatever works to remove stress and mental effort from the runners for as long as possible, and if that happens it can make a big difference in what kind of will they can exert at the end of the race.

Talk with the pacer in the corral, and you should get a good feel for whether the guy (at 3:05 it will be a guy) knows what he is doing, will be good company, stress you out, annoy you, or be indifferent. Just don't believe going it alone doesn't require greater mental effort, or that it somehow makes the time more worthy.

I've done both and have gotten lucky to have had good pacers when I've used them. One added benefit that is probably overlooked is you can draft off the pace group. A lot of people are eager to be best friends with the pacer for some reason. Just hang back behind the pack and reap all the benefits. Ran a somewhat windy marathon once and felt like I had a shield in front of me pulling me along through most of the head wind. Left my legs with plenty of energy the last 4 to 5 miles.

BlastedMaster wrote:

I know I'm just a peon but... the negative split is the way to go.

Some marathons are not advisable to negative split. There's a few with flat fast first halves and hilly seconds.

Stay in the back, take no wind, no hassle at the drinking tables. If they yoyo in pace, let them. Just sit in the back and trust your own judgment.

BlastedMaster wrote:

I know I'm just a peon but... the negative split is the way to go. Think of it this way, would you rather be hanging on for dear life or hard charging over that last 5k? If you feel great you can always run faster, if you are just hanging on marathon times tend to drop in BIG hunks. So you go from consistent 650's to 710 740, to staggering in at 850. When it goes- it goes big.

wrong on so many levels...

Thanks great advice, I will run my own race but run with the pace group but I will hang towards the back to get the benefits and reduce any negatives that come with the pace group.

The problem is that this marathon is small so the second half the pace group gets really small, I will just have to reassess the second half...thanks yall

repeatpacer wrote:

BlastedMaster wrote:

I know I'm just a peon but... the negative split is the way to go. Think of it this way, would you rather be hanging on for dear life or hard charging over that last 5k? If you feel great you can always run faster, if you are just hanging on marathon times tend to drop in BIG hunks. So you go from consistent 650's to 710 740, to staggering in at 850. When it goes- it goes big.

wrong on so many levels...

Yeah probably better to open up with 1:25 half and fade to a 1:35-40 second half.

BlastedMaster wrote:

Yeah probably better to open up with 1:25 half and fade to a 1:35-40 second half.

no, you have such a limited view, as that is just poor pacing

in 40+ marathons, i've had that kind of fade twice.. once due to illness and one major 'wall' where i did go from running 6:30's to 8:00's... after mile 23

the problem with holding back is how much to hold back?

how much can you realistically speed up?

if you run too slow early, you will not make up the time on tired legs...

much better to know your sustainable pace and hold it for as long as possible.. if you fade by a few seconds per mile the last 3-4 miles, you've paced to your ability

what makes you think you're a better analyst than Pfitzinger? did your book outsell his? did you beat him at the Olympic Trials? do you have a degree in exercise physiology from a better school than he does?

I have paced a dozen marathons and it's always in pairs (2 of us run the entire way, one time the other guy joined me 1/2 way, but that was weird). The strategy is normally to "bank" 30-60 seconds on any downhill miles early on and keep it smooth and steady. Any big hills up or down are considered and it may be best to bank a little extra time or start slower and plan to gain some of that time back if more downhills are late in the race. If I were pacing the 3:05 group we would come through 1/2 way at 1:32 and finish in 3:04:XX. Nobody wants to run with the 3:05 group to qualify for Boston and run a 3:05:01 because they couldn't pick it up down the homestretch!

As mentioned, if you are concerned always talk to the pacers at the start, introduce yourself, ask their plan, have they run the course before, etc. We're people too and do this because we enjoy helping others achieve their goals and making new running friends along the way. I haven't done a bad job pacing, yet, But everyone has their bad days and I'm sure I will have to apologise to somebody in the future for going out too fast or bonking at mile 22.

Good luck to you all!

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