hansons 2x6, 2 weeks before marathon

Thanks so much everyone- this has turned into an excellent thread with great training insights

Muffy, some of those workouts you posted are really challenging, such as 4x5k at HMP with 1k steady jog. With a 14:10 PR, you would think you would have run well under 65 and 2:18 by now, unless you've only run 1-2 marathons so far. And as most people know, if someone says they are a 65 minute half guy, they are more than likely closer to 66.

How many marathons have you run? Do you think your workout times have matched up with your results?

I just have a hard time believing someone could handle that much extension at the speeds you listed, unless they were overtraining.

Muffy,good luck in your half...I'm in the same boat as you in trying to get an OTQ for the 2016 trials still.Your 5km PR is also quite a bit faster than mine (I only ran 14:29 in college). I'd say that perhaps you may have done too much quality too soon though on that one schedule. Throwing down 4x 5km at HMP is pretty crazy hard for a 1:05 half guy (although I see where you say your altitude pace is MP for this workout which I agree would make sense). Back when Tim Young, Luke Humphrey and I all ran 1:04 (I was the slowest of the bunch at 1:04:32) I don't think we could do much more than 7 x 1.5 mile at HMP pace or slightly faster and maybe some 4 x 2 mile LT repeats close to it (and that was at sea level). Of course it depends on easy day pace, your other workouts (i.e. quality Long Runs) and overall weekly mileage. When I tried to train for a sub 1:04 half at Hansons we were cranking workouts like 2 x 3miles in the 14:40s and 2 x 4 miles in 19:50 cut down to 19:low...I ended up overtraining and blowing a gasket at Philly where I almost got rolled up by Kim Smith when she ran 1:07:11!But I'm going to disagree with you saying that you can't do anything to gain fitness in the last 4 weeks.... in Pfitzinger's "Advanced Marathoning" for sure gains from mile repeats and 1km repeats in the 8km 10km pace range and/or even only (90-95% of Vo2max) can still improve Running Economy at all sub maximal speeds rather quickly. While the final 2 week taper is about absorbing training and capitalizing on months of hard work and fitness, a good hard lactate threshold workout 3 weeks out (and maybe a fairly controlled Long Run 3.5 weeks out) can still boost fitness for race day. Then in the final 10-12 days out a fairly light session of something like 6-8 x 1km at 10km pace is going help, IMO.Good luck with the OTQ!

he mentioned his HMP workouts at altitude are run at pace that equals sea level MP

"Are you Sure?" You bring up valid points and tough questions that I have to deal with, because the truth is, you are absolutely right. An attentive reader will know who I am based on my following reply, but so it goes. I've listed my training, I'm proud of what I've accomplished, I am confident in the program I have designed for myself, and I hope my insight helps others reach their goals as well. I'll start off with PRs:

1500: 3:49, 2010

5000: 14:10, 2010

10k: 29:50, 2011

1/2: 1:05:57, 2014

Full: 2:18:35, 2014

I have run 9 marathons with the following progression and notes on each one.

2:33, 4 weeks after college, ill advised from new coach

2:27, First real attempt, fueling issues threw up at 18

2:24, got a free entry so ran for fun started really slow (6:10) and moved up

2:24, second full attempt threw up at 23

2:20, 6 weeks after previous race, decided to redeem myself, perfect weather, great day

2:23, perfect weather day, went out in 1:07:30 for half, blew up. in reality in 2:19:00 shape

2:18:35 , perfect build up conditions, 26deg at start winds up to 22mph, thought in shape for 2:15:30, beat a few 2:13 guys

2:20, 40deg 15mph winds and rain shut it down last 5k when i knew i wouldnt get the time.

2:21, 2014 Boston weather needs no explaination, i thought I was in shape for 2:17:00

Outside of bad luck with weather during races there were a couple things that hindered my development post collegiately. Biggest thing is I moved to the south for 2 years(i have since moved back) and cut my mileage by 30% because of a new coach and group I joined. After that I started being coached by a former teammate, who got me back closer to college shape and coached me to the 2:20 using primarily Lydiard schedules. In Nov 2013 life got in the way of a coaching relationship so I began training myself. I still use him as an advisor and routinely bounce ideas off him, he helps rein me in at times and convinces me to rest.

The second hindrance was adjusting to work life after school. I went through bouts of depression and gained 20 lbs. As of fall 2014 I got back to college weight. I still work full time, but have a flexible, low stress job.

Now to directly answer your questions, 4x5k is a very hard workout, i think it is necessary to prepare for the last 10k. last buildup I averaged 16:09 5k at 5500feet altitude with a 11 second/mi conversion, that suggests 2:17:00. I think I was there at Boston without the headwind.

Maybe this sounds like a list of excuses, it probably is. It's what happened. I definitely have gone through bouts of overtraining and race results showed. I think I have avoided over training the past year and a half though. Sometimes, it takes a while for race results to catch up to training.

I have 3 more shots going forward at the standard. I have learned a lot throughout the process and thoroughly enjoy every bit of it.

Muffy, best of luck this weekend. Report back and let us know how it went.

This is very similar to my last big workout before my 2 week taper. I do 2*5 miles starting at MP and going slightly faster but never down to HMP. That seems to strenuous. I do the 3*3 mile workout the week prior at similar paces. With 3-4 minute jog recovery, this isn't that taxing if done at the proper pace. I've run a lot of negative splits and I feel hitting these types of paces frequently in training were a big part of it.

Sage,

Thanks for the comments and your experience.

I will be looking at some of Pfitzinger's stuff. If I could change anything(and I have) I will be substituting in 2 more v02max (1k or 1mi repeat) workouts to the schedule. I don't think the 4x5k was too early though. Daniels "Big T" workouts are suggested during phase 2. Weeks 18-12 before race.

As far as the schedule, what you see was my schedule of hard workouts. Each workout is meant to be hard with 3 easy days in between. (see canova schedules) on easy day #2 it alternates between a medium long run of 16-18, or 2 miles worth of mile pace with full recovery. 8x200 or 4x400. I would not be able to do the workouts I did without that many easy days.

As an aside, my situation now as opposed to your time at Hansons is I do all my training by myself. It gets lonely at times but in a lot of ways I prefer it that way. 1) I run the paces i want to run 2) my schedule is super flexible so i can delay a workout if i need to recover more 3) i dont have any one to race my workouts with.

Yeah, I'd still think 4 x 5km is too hard too early. 3 x 5km a couple times (maybe 8 and 4 weeks out) I think is better. Given your faster shorter distance PRs I guess maybe the track work isn't needed as much (for a slow guy like me it is though!). I'd also say you don't need a full 18-week program to train for a marathon, given your high mileage background. That's a long time! At Hansons we usually had about 12 weeks. When I trained myself for LA this year I had about 10 weeks (with a little taper for USA xc thrown in there) coming off of injury...then ran Boston 5 weeks later. (I train solo now too as well and coach myself so I know how it is..I actually really like it). If there's anything I learned from past marathons and training at Hansons is that it's pretty easy to cross the line and overtrain. I'm pretty sure a lot of times I left my race out on the roads of MI doing the 16-mile "Simulator" too hard, and/or a near all-out 20-miler, and/or trying to close down a 3 x 3-mile too fast.

You've got plenty of speed and talent and training for an OTQ. It's all about being solid in that last 10km and not bonking hard. You might also want to look at your nutrition if you are having that many stomach issues. Good luck this weekend!

Sage, I am going to play devils advocate here. Do you think your own eagerness in training led to your downfall while at the Hanson's rather than the training programme itself.

I remember the simulator you guys ran before the 2012 trials in Florida. Remember how Luke was the only guy who ran it sensible and at MP. Yourself and a few others were exceeding the intention of the workout with the progressive nature of the last 5 miles. It seems in your training advice that you refer back to the time at the Hanson's with regret over the difficulty of the training programme when it was you all along who made it so. I would describe the Hanson marathon schedule for its elites as very moderate and doable compared to the oppressive, barbaric philosophy we use in Europe, the last great continent.

Regards

For what it's worth, I find that 2x 6 at MP (not MP-10) is a great marathon workout. I also would advise against doing 14 miles at MP two weeks out, as that will be a very high stimulus and you may not recover fully. I'd recommend doing a marathon pace workout of that length no closer than three weeks out, and doing a split workout like 2x 5 or 3x 3 a bit closer to race day. I personally would also prefer to do a bigger workout like the 2x 6 3-6 weeks out as well.

I'm a sub-2:40 marathoner, so certainly not elite by any means, but have found great success copying a lot of the Hansons' workouts. I like to alternate the split MP workouts with straight MP runs. It breaks up the monotony and can help you dial in to the pace that you otherwise might be too fatigued to hit accurately.

"Ghost"- are you trolling? Either way, what is your problem? You really sound like a jerk- just the whole tone, everything... And Sage was already talking earlier about learning through experience about not overtraining.

Sage, Muffy and everyone- thanks for your inspiring posting here. I know I've found it very helpful and I'm sure many others do as well. Very best of luck in your efforts to achieve the OTQ standard

Muffy, are you racing RnR San Jose this weekend by any chance? If so good luck man, I think there's going to be at least 10 of us going for the trials standard there.

Never mind, I just realized who you are. Best of luck this weekend man.

TheGarbageDisposal: I'm sure it will be a good one, Good luck yourself!

This is way off topic from the point of this thread...but just to point out some facts:1. The simulator in Florida that year was short...we didn't really run that fast.2. Luke got injured that segment and DNFed at the trials...I will also point out that last time we raced (LA Marathon this year) I finished several minutes ahead of him.3. I didn't have much control of anything I did at Hansons (I think most ex-Hansons would agree with that point)...really the only thing we could change in training was how fast or slow we could take our "easy days." ...(I was also able to self publish a rather poorly written memoir about the whole experience but that's another story altogether)Anyway, I think the OP got their question answered and some people have provided some solid marathon training advice.Best of luck to those racing this weekend...hope to see some new OTQ performances added to the list!

Ghost in Cratloe wrote:

Sage, I am going to play devils advocate here. Do you think your own eagerness in training led to your downfall while at the Hanson's rather than the training programme itself.

I remember the simulator you guys ran before the 2012 trials in Florida. Remember how Luke was the only guy who ran it sensible and at MP. Yourself and a few others were exceeding the intention of the workout with the progressive nature of the last 5 miles. It seems in your training advice that you refer back to the time at the Hanson's with regret over the difficulty of the training programme when it was you all along who made it so. I would describe the Hanson marathon schedule for its elites as very moderate and doable compared to the oppressive, barbaric philosophy we use in Europe, the last great continent.

Regards

ghost of Brian Sell wrote:

"Ghost"- are you trolling? Either way, what is your problem? You really sound like a jerk- just the whole tone, everything...

Last time I checked Brian Sell was still alive.

Ghostly Troll wrote:

ghost of Brian Sell wrote:

"Ghost"- are you trolling? Either way, what is your problem? You really sound like a jerk- just the whole tone, everything...

Last time I checked Brian Sell was still alive.

Wow, thank you for the enlightening newsflash. Last time I checked he's not exactly racing anymore.

I'm just an old also-ran/former 2:32 runner but...

The ability to handle lots of miles at hm to mp seems to be key to successful marathon training.

This ability and durability to handle that workload is both an individual trait and a trainable trait.

While faster workouts will help the marathoner by improving running economy they can get in the way of more important training.

We focus a lot on the details and not much on the concept.

How much are you running today vs last year vs 5 years ago?

How much of that volume is run at hm to mp today vs last year vs 5 years ago?

You can't just go out tomorrow and do 2 x 6 miles on a lark. Just because you physically can do something doesn't mean you should.

What's your progression? How does a workout fit into your 1 year or 5 year plan?

I think too often we get into the habit of running workouts for the sake of "the workout".

Alan