this place is full of jerks wrote:
lolwut wrote:Uhh... no... a 30 minute 8k is not comparable to a 19 minute 5k... a 30 minute 8k is at a SIGNIFICANTLY faster pace than the 19 minute 5k... imbecile.
Maybe you're right, but maybe not.
Sub 19 in high school, say 18:30 - 45 can easily do sub 30 by the time they are a year in college. It's called development, dumb ass.
Someone might "develop" into a 30 minute 8ker? Hate to sound like a jerk, but that's not worth a college coach's time.
The jerk store called... wrote:
this place is full of jerks wrote:Maybe you're right, but maybe not.
Sub 19 in high school, say 18:30 - 45 can easily do sub 30 by the time they are a year in college. It's called development, dumb ass.
Someone might "develop" into a 30 minute 8ker? Hate to sound like a jerk, but that's not worth a college coach's time.
Gotta agree here. You're saying someone could improve enough to become the worst guy on the team, the guy who lags behind in every workout and never gets to dress for a real meet. Why would a coach be interested in this?
I only ran18min in high school and I ran d3 and got down to 16s in college and 1:15 for half marathon. There are plenty of d2 and d3 schools a 19min kid could compete for but he needs to be willing to put in 60mile weeks or thereabouts. Once he's doing this he will probably take a good minute to 2 mins off his 5k time anyway.
Yes - 19min is pretty terrible by letsrun standards but let's be honest here - that is usually borderline high school varsity for boys at most high schools in USA. If he trains hard over the summer before college, he will probably be running sub30min for 8k or so cross country in the fall. He will still be a number 15 man on the team but he can be part of an NCAA program and possibly get down to 15-16min for 5k and 26-27min for 8k or so with a few years of serious training.
There are also couple of middle distance types who ran like 2:05 for 800m in high school but only run like 30min for 8k in cross country, usually because they barely run over the summer, never train consistently and/or just don't care. They still get to be on the team though.
Bard College Raptors!
I only ran 18s for 3 mile in high school and didn't get close to 5 for the mile. Ran DIII and ended up sub 33 10K in college and sub 32 post grad. A third or more of our team did not break 30 for 8K each year yet they were welcome on the program.
Concerned Coach, have these guys join a university or local running club and forget about the college team. I don't say this rudely but many HS girls can break 19:00 for 5K. Are there college programs that will accept a boy running that? At least a few. It's unlikely, however, they will be good programs that score well in meets. This is just my opinion, but training hard every day only to get my teeth kicked in on race day doesn't sound very rewarding. Scoring 1400+ on an SAT opens more doors and opportunities for positive college experiences than running on a mediocre college team will. Good luck.
lolwut wrote:
sbeefyk1 wrote:Caltech is a very good school and has some 30+ min 8k runners. That's pretty comparable to a 19min 5k I would say.
Uhh... no... a 30 minute 8k is not comparable to a 19 minute 5k... a 30 minute 8k is at a SIGNIFICANTLY faster pace than the 19 minute 5k... imbecile.
Uhh...no...a 30 minute 8k is 6:00 mile pace while a 19 minute 5k is at about 6:07. I wouldn't call that a SIGNIFICANTLY faster pace... imbecile.
Although the 8k is definitely the superior statistic.
Concerned Coach wrote:
Please don't troll. I am looking for a serious answer. "Run faster" is not an appreciated answer, thanks.
Does anyone know of any solid academic colleges (1400+ SAT score) that has a program that a sub-19 boy could walk on to? Specifically looking at the northeast. Thanks in advanced!
Each of the Ivies fields men's & women's NIRCA teams -- Cornell, Brown, Columbia, Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale, Princeton, Penn.
If I were the OP and I were serious about running, I would try to up the miles to 60+ MPW and run at bates, Colby, wash U St. Louis, Haverford, tufts, MIT, Bentley, Rochester Inst of Technology, RPI, etc.
Or you can go to a big d1 school with better runners where you won't have an f'inng prayer of ever being on the team and instead run for a NIRCA club team affiliated with the big d1 such as at Villanova or Univ of Virginia. The problem with this is no structure. You basically have a kid who was good but not good enough to run for a top d1 (like 15min for 5k) coaching the team. He doesn't necessarily give 2 shits whether you ever come to practice or not. It's a club (in some cases totally non-competitive) atmosphere.
I know school aka academics are supposed to be the most important but who are we to tell this kid what is most important. You may think a 1400 kid should accept he is a shitty athlete and quit and spend all his time in the library and doing intramurals to prevent a beer belly, but if he loves running, it's def possible for him to be decent someday (e.g. 15min 5K). And competitive running and top level academics often go hand in hand. No reason you can't concentrate on being at your best at both while you're in college.
A 19min kid who loves running and wants to be as competitive as possible should do what I said in the 1st paragraph. If this same kid treats running more like a pure hobby to keep from getting fat and really wants to spend his time in an academic lab and at frat parties, then a NIRCA club at a big d1 would be a better fit.
I was in a similar situation several years ago. Strong academically (valedictorian, good SAT's, etc.) and also kind of slow (18:50 5k PR).
If running is important to you, join a real team. I would not recommend a club. I ran for my school's club team this year while in grad school and it was not nearly the same experience that running for a real university team was. Although the club coach was great and we had some really good runners, there is not the same collective focus, commitment, and general camaraderie.
There are plenty of DII/DIII schools that are fantastic academically and will take someone with a 19 minute 5k. If you're willing to work hard, you can become a respectable runner by your 2nd/3rd year. I turned that 18:50 5k into 15:43/32:15 by the time I left.
Good luck!
mb08.24 wrote:
If running is important to you, join a real team.
There are plenty of DII/DIII schools that are fantastic academically and will take someone with a 19 minute 5k.
This is the answer. I work at a DIII private school and my kid ran track at an Ivy, so I've seen several sides of it. I don't know if it's like this at all DIII schools, but the team atmosphere at my school is awesome. A tight-knit group that is really passionate about running but understands that academics comes first. We have plenty of kids with 1400 or 1500 SATs. The XC and track teams here are competitive in their conference and have a couple guys who could hang with D1, but most are a long ways from D1. A 19 min 5k guy isn't going to win their first race, but they'll be one of the guys, have a lot of fun, and have an opportunity to improve. I've seen the team mob a teammate and jump around when the guy finished mid-pack with a very modest time but a big PR for him. The camaraderie is really great.
There are lots of great small private DIII colleges in the northeast. Where in the northeast is he looking? Looking for catholic or christian?
Williams is your place. Fantastic academics and a huge team. The coach there lets anyone walk on and is equally invested in developing 30 minute 8k guys as he is in 30 minute 10k guys. His focus is on loving the sport. Williamstown has tons of beautiful trails to run around when it's not freezing cold. The team culture is very welcoming to all abilities an has people who have never run before joining every year.
A ton of other NESCAC schools have the same deal, I'm just a williams alum. Amherst and middlebury cut, but Tufts, bates, bowdoin, conn college, haverford, and Carlton all have big teams and similar programs. Also look at caltech and emory.
mb08.24 wrote:
I was in a similar situation several years ago. Strong academically (valedictorian, good SAT's, etc.) and also kind of slow (18:50 5k PR).
If running is important to you, join a real team. I would not recommend a club. I ran for my school's club team this year while in grad school and it was not nearly the same experience that running for a real university team was. Although the club coach was great and we had some really good runners, there is not the same collective focus, commitment, and general camaraderie.
There are plenty of DII/DIII schools that are fantastic academically and will take someone with a 19 minute 5k. If you're willing to work hard, you can become a respectable runner by your 2nd/3rd year. I turned that 18:50 5k into 15:43/32:15 by the time I left.
Good luck!
I had a similar experience on a nirca club after I finished my eligibility. No committment from the other club members, no coaching, no one else had run in the ncaa, we skipped regionals one year because a 8 hour drive was too far, etc. I stuck around to run in a couple xc meets in the fall, but did most my training on my own. After xc ended, all my training was on my own. The good thing about the club was one guy transfered to run for a d3 team, so he was able to stay fit enough to do that for a year.
OP and mb08,
The bottom line is what did the runner do to get to his 18:5X PR?
If he didn't mature until the summer before college and/or never trained during the summer and/or ran the 500 and 300 hurdles in the winter and spring, most schools will give him a chance if he is showing improvement and has a decent 400. If he trains consistently on a Summer of Malmo like schedule from when XC ends this fall, he might take his 18:3X XC time and run a 10:1X 3200 this spring. More work over the summer and who knows where he will be next fall.
Does he have a track time that indicates more potential?
On the other hand, we had a few guys in HS who matured with the rest of us, ran pretty much 40 mpw all through HS running the 1600 in the winter and spring and still only managed 18:4X and equivalent 1600s and 400s. Running in college on a team wasn't in the cards for them at least not in-state.
Look at colleges that do not have football teams, that need to be balanced by having fewer slots on other men's teams.
sappy sammy wrote:
The jerk store called... wrote:Someone might "develop" into a 30 minute 8ker? Hate to sound like a jerk, but that's not worth a college coach's time.
Gotta agree here. You're saying someone could improve enough to become the worst guy on the team, the guy who lags behind in every workout and never gets to dress for a real meet. Why would a coach be interested in this?
My coach made concessions and I hope that he wasn't / isn't the only one who does. On the team I was on we had a couple of kids that ran in every open meet and would come along to all the meets we "traveled" to since we'd travel more than 200 miles only a couple of times per year. They were 30 - 32min 8k guys.
They took a full-time course load at the university, but were taking courses that included services outlined in their Individualized Education Program (IEP). They were exceptionally bright in certain subjects, but had difficulties in others, not to mention having a difficult time in social situations. We as a team went out of our way to include them in everything that was going on. A tiny "price to pay" to let them feel "normal."
The jerk store called... wrote:
this place is full of jerks wrote:Uhh... no... a 30 minute 8k is not comparable to a 19 minute 5k... a 30 minute 8k is at a SIGNIFICANTLY faster pace than the 19 minute 5k... imbecile.
Someone might "develop" into a 30 minute 8ker? Hate to sound like a jerk, but that's not worth a college coach's time.
Mods deleted my post because I said ass.
Meanwhile, site owner is posting weird sex news. This place sucks and consider me an enemy combatant.
That said between a third and a half of DIII runners don't break 19 for 5K, when starting out. I didn't break 24 for 4 mile as a freshman, ran 22 as a sophomore, low 21 as junior and senior, and did 20:10 post college/25:30 8K.
Once again letsrun proves its stupidity.
Professorial type wrote:
mb08.24 wrote:If running is important to you, join a real team.
There are plenty of DII/DIII schools that are fantastic academically and will take someone with a 19 minute 5k.
This is the answer. I work at a DIII private school and my kid ran track at an Ivy, so I've seen several sides of it. I don't know if it's like this at all DIII schools, but the team atmosphere at my school is awesome. A tight-knit group that is really passionate about running but understands that academics comes first. We have plenty of kids with 1400 or 1500 SATs. The XC and track teams here are competitive in their conference and have a couple guys who could hang with D1, but most are a long ways from D1. A 19 min 5k guy isn't going to win their first race, but they'll be one of the guys, have a lot of fun, and have an opportunity to improve. I've seen the team mob a teammate and jump around when the guy finished mid-pack with a very modest time but a big PR for him. The camaraderie is really great.
There are lots of great small private DIII colleges in the northeast. Where in the northeast is he looking? Looking for catholic or christian?
Let me ask a simplistic question? Would any other college sport (not womens re Title IX) accept sub-par athletes/charity cases onto their roster?
Is XC, in particular, the only sport to do this? I am talking specifically baby baby nationals........Div. III.
messi wrote:
Let me ask a simplistic question? Would any other college sport (not womens re Title IX) accept sub-par athletes/charity cases onto their roster?
Is XC, in particular, the only sport to do this? I am talking specifically baby baby nationals........Div. III.
As I said a bit earlier in this thread, my Univ did this for XC and Track & Field for 2 athletes while I was attending.
To answer your question: XC and Track & Field. Possibly swimming or Cycling teams? That's speculation though.
If competent, his high school coach should be able to come up with several choices that would be a good fit.
Oh! wait a minute, you are his coach.
mellon wrote:
If competent, his high school coach should be able to come up with several choices that would be a good fit.
Oh! wait a minute, you are his coach.
+1.
Yeah. Just look at the results of DIII conference meets. You can easily spot which teams have slow runners. You can either tell which of them have good academic programs, or at least look them up in some kind of list.