Most important track interval workouts for Marathon Training?

I take it that you ran 1:45 for a half marathon not an 800.

Just restate what has already been said. I really don't see why you would do any of the short stuff. Yeah I realize the elites do 800s and less but they are looking at sub 2:12. You need long sustained repeats.

Smelltheglove wrote:

Just restate what has already been said. I really don't see why you would do any of the short stuff. Yeah I realize the elites do 800s and less but they are looking at sub 2:12. You need long sustained repeats.

Still haven't heard any good evidence why they would be good for elites and not others.

Fair enough. You are correct that these guys were not running 5k race pace. KK was supposedly running 4:30s and the Hanson guys were running 4:40s, which is still pretty fast. I agree with the idea of making a long run a progressive tempo, but I think there will be more benefit by finishing the last 10k or so at half marathon pace.

I don't disagree that uptempo running can be beneficial, but as you say, only to the extent that longer repitions and tempo runs are prioritized.

These guys are training to race, not only the clock, but also each other. Of course, everyone is at a different level. But I would say for a sub-elite racer or slower who is training to run their fastest marathon, it will likely be done with an even effort, rather than surging and the other tactics that someone like KK employs during a marathon.

So they were getting the best of both worlds. Speed work and strength in the same session due to the short recovery!These people who train at marathon pace have it all wrong. You need high mileage with "fast" running thrown in. Why practice to run slow, we already know how to do that?

Z'mutt wrote:

Deek and Moneghetti did the 8x400m reps fast 62-63s with brisk recoveries of about 45s for 200m. Thats about 14.20 for 3 miles. The Tuesday night fartlek sessions were also short and very intense.

The Dina wrote:

These people who train at marathon pace have it all wrong. You need high mileage with "fast" running thrown in. Why practice to run slow, we already know how to do that?[quote]Z'mutt wrote:

If marathon pace is slow you aren't running fast enough (kidding).

deep thought say:

>800 or shorter repeats will do absolutely nothing for marathoning<

Think again, deeply:

Meyer:

http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/TrainingLogs/meyer8283.htm

Malmo:

http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/rtp3.htm#malmo%20remembers

Bordin:

http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/TrainingLogs/bordin.htm

Radcliffe says she does one main session a week totalling about 10km in repetition distance - 10x 1km, 6 x 1mile and then she'll do somthing a little different a little later in the week, slightly more up-tempo and slightly shorter in distance. But I don't think that this is the key part of her training. )Also she invariably runs on the track. She uses the road or grass more often.)

Having read her book I think she puts her main emphasis on her long run - she says she was running close to 24 miles in 2 hrs 15 whilst at altitude a few weeks before running her 2:15. She says she took months to get up to this level, but that is pretty high intensity for a long run.

Listening to stories about Charlie Spedding and Steve Jones, they would also put a lot of their training emphasis on hard long runs and use sessions to break up their weeks. I don't think they had key sessions that they needed to do before marathons.

Reading other posts on this link. The sessions Deek and Monegetti are quoted to have run a simple track sessions to turn their legs over. No way these the main emphasis of their week. Many runners training hard can run 8 x 400m's in 62/63. But very, very few can run like Monegetti

stipe wrote:

These guys are training to race, not only the clock, but also each other. Of course, everyone is at a different level. But I would say for a sub-elite racer or slower who is training to run their fastest marathon, it will likely be done with an even effort, rather than surging and the other tactics that someone like KK employs during a marathon.

So do you think that if KK is going for a WR a in paced race with little or no competition he need not bother with speedwork?

There is no reason why an aspiring 3'00 marathoner shouldnt include some speedwork. It has nothing to do with 'needing to surge' or 'sprint finish' and everything to do with increasing lactate tolerance, training the anaerobic system (still gets used), increasing V02 max, developing muscle strength/balance and the increasing the Vo2 max efficiency.

Its the same physiology for a 3h runner and a 2h runner, one is just better.

I AGREE that the priorty of a previously untrained athlete should not be speedwork or intervals but that is not the current argument.

wannabekila,

I agree. There are no "most important" interval workouts for marathon runners or anyone else.

All the bases/basics have to be covered, every aspect equally important.

Focus on becoming a better "runner" not a better "marathon runner."

I agree with the long interval/stay off the track school of though. At least that's the case until I do my first marathon this winter. I think one day a week of threshold training (2x10k or long fartlek or tempo, etc) plus a solid long run is sufficient. Not sure that shorter intervals on the track would help much. But I guess I will reevaluate next year. I've been able to get in great shape for xc off of one fartlek and one hard (at least the 2nd half of it) long run a week, with distance and strides the other days. But then, people like Frank Shorter and Steve Jones thrived on doing two short interval workouts a week, plus a race or tempo on the weekend, so I think marathon training depends a lot on your background and comfort-level.

So do you think that if KK is going for a WR a in paced race with little or no competition he need not bother with speedwork?

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I didn't say or imply this.

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Its the same physiology for a 3h runner and a 2h runner, one is just better.

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I agree with your statement here, but I still feel that the priority is different.

The original question pertained to the "most important" interval workout for the marathon. For me, it is probably 3 to 5 times 2 miles or 3 miles between Half and MP with 2:00 recovery jogs.

My two-week rotation of hard days:

Week 1

TUE: 14-17 miles over VERY hilly terrain

THUR: 8k-10k at threshold pace (long warm-up and cool down)

SUN: 10-15 mile steady-state at marathon pace

Week 2

TUE: 2-3 x 4k-5k at threshold pace with 3-5 minute recovery jogs

THUR: 6-8 x 1k at 5k race pace with 2 minute rests

SUN: Long run (20-23 miles, with the last 6-8 miles at marathon pace)

Every week I have a threshold workout as one hard run. The other 2 hard days I alternate hill run/VO2 repeats, and MP run/long run.

The other 4 days a week are easy runs, 1-3 of which are two-a-days. I follow 2 runs a week with 5-8 x 80-120 meter strides with full recovery.

Just an idea.

mr. sub 2:30 wrote:

My two-week rotation of hard days:

Week 1

TUE: 14-17 miles over VERY hilly terrain

THUR: 8k-10k at threshold pace (long warm-up and cool down)

SUN: 10-15 mile steady-state at marathon pace

Week 2

TUE: 2-3 x 4k-5k at threshold pace with 3-5 minute recovery jogs

THUR: 6-8 x 1k at 5k race pace with 2 minute rests

SUN: Long run (20-23 miles, with the last 6-8 miles at marathon pace)

Every week I have a threshold workout as one hard run. The other 2 hard days I alternate hill run/VO2 repeats, and MP run/long run.

The other 4 days a week are easy runs, 1-3 of which are two-a-days. I follow 2 runs a week with 5-8 x 80-120 meter strides with full recovery.

Just an idea.

Looks like all tempo work and no speed or strength. Just an observation.

I prefer mile repeats. I work up to 7 x 1-mile with 200 slow jog recovery between reps. I usually try to average just slightly faster in seconds than the minutes of my marathon time.

For example:

5:50 repeats = 2:50 marathon

5:40 repeats = 2:40 marathon

This works out to be around lactate threshold pace.

No, the 800m

Answer to the original questions: Yes! Tinman

Tinman wrote:

Answer to the original questions: Yes! Tinman

Gee thanks for the insightful repsonse.

Hodgie-San hit the nail right on the head.Steve Jones said, "I'm not a marathon runner, I'm just a runner".When Carlos Lopes was asked what was his most important workout of the week his response was, "they are all equally important".

Hodgie-san wrote:

wannabekila,

I agree. There are no "most important" interval workouts for marathon runners or anyone else.

All the bases/basics have to be covered, every aspect equally important.

Focus on becoming a better "runner" not a better "marathon runner."