Easy transition into flats

Mr. Flats wrote:

I am glad to see the we can agree on a few things. But why do you insist on assuming that your stress in your metatarsals would have been any better with a couple more millimeters of cushioning?

try this one out:

1) Punch a concrete wall with your bare hand at three times your body weight. Repeat for several hours

2) Punch a concrete wall with racing flats on your hands at that same force. Repeat for several hours

3) Ask yourself this question: if I could, would I put a little more cushioning in between my hand and the wall, even a couple millimeters?

This is the question your feet are asking. 99% of fast runners who run on hard surfaces don't go in for this flats fad.

Johnston,

A few points:

You fail to take into account technique. A better example is letting a fastball hit your hand or trying to catch it -- which hurts more?

As far as fast runners wearing regular shoes, they buy into the technology, and I think, could do better.

[quote]..../// wrote:

But trackhead and others on here say it weakens the foot.

I don't think that cushioned/supportive shoes weaken the foot per say as much as they do not correct any existing weakness.

When I first started wearing Tigers around, my legs were more sore at the end of the day compared to cushioned shoes. Gradually the pain lessened. Last week, I ran a workout in them (no problems), and lately, I don't notice when I wear them around for 8-9 hours a day. I do not think that it is a coincidence that my legs no longer buckle getting out of bed in the morning during high mileage/intensity weeks of training. I'm all for transition to something like H Streets. Plus, they are cheaper, lighter (read: faster), and if your body can compensate... why not give it a shot?

if you think built up trainers dont weaken your foot, do me a favor. run a long run in flats for you "normal" shoe wearers. odds are, your feet and lower legs will be incredibly sore the next day. why is that? what gets sore? yes, thats right, muscles. anytime you put a stress on something, it reacts. in this case, your feet will get stronger.

{try this one out:

1) Punch a concrete wall with your bare hand at three times your body weight. Repeat for several hours

2) Punch a concrete wall with racing flats on your hands at that same force. Repeat for several hours

3) Ask yourself this question: if I could, would I put a little more cushioning in between my hand and the wall, even a couple millimeters?}

so i should train in a boxing glove? if not, punch a wall with combat boots on and then with a pair of trainers. i bet the combat boots feel better! go do some 22 milers in those puppies!

..../// wrote:

But trackhead and others on here say it weakens the foot. Alex is right, if that were true , than non runners would have stronger feet than runners, which I highly doubt. This notion that cushioned shoes cause injuries is rediculous. There are plenty of horror stories about training in minimal shoes as well.

I think your missing something in my writings. When compared to the unshod human, the regular-shoe wearer will invariable have weaker feet. By saying that cushy shoes weaken your feet, I'm drawing a comparison to those who do not use shoes -- just regular humans.

i agree, but you are saying that "normal" shoes actually WEAKEN muscles - like atrophy or something. I don't know about that. Prove me wrong and I'll agree with that as well. Of course the muscles are sore after a long run in flats for the first time, because they were already weak. "Normal" shoes do nothing to develop these muscles because they support everything. We agree on this. When you switch to minimalists, you use/strengthen these, and they are sore. But what you were stating is that Kayanos or the like will actually MAKE YOUR FOOT WEAKER THAN IT WAS TO BEGIN WITH. Is this what you are really saying? This is a trite argument; apologies to others.

I think our point of arguement is: how strong are the feet before the Kayano goes on?

-If the new Kayano user as worn NB cross trainers an dtennis shoes for years and has no runnign background, no the feet will not get weaker

-If the new Kayano user has never worn shoes in his/her life, or has only used the thinnest of soles, then yes -- the Kayano will limit their range of motion, do far more work and weaken their feet.

Now, this sheds some bit more light, thanks.

Other question: If I wear regular training shoes (Pegs and NB 751) for my morning runs and one of the easy-longer runs, and all the intensity plus wu and wd (about 60% of the overall mileage)during the week is done in asics ds racer/nike air zoom mariah's, would that be beneficial (understand- help me to make a transition to all time flats wearing) to me, or not? Note- I am used to running in flats, but only the intensity stuff and I am afraid that my legs and feet would not recover fast enough when wearing flats all the time.

How would a minimalist recommend making the transition from a cushioned trainer (i.e. supernova cushion) to a minimalist flat? Is it better to work in a lightweight trainer or marathon racer first? Once you make the transition to the lighter shoe then you continue the transition the same way but into the H street or similar. I feel it would make more sense to gradually work into the flat or am I just delaying the transition?

I always read with interest the threads on training in flats here.

What I have yet to read is whether switching from trainers to flats has ultimately improved people's racing performances?

There seems to be a fair few here that are pleased to announce they can now knock out 100 miles/week in flats as if that was their only goal.

I note earlier mention of Nike Air Zoom Elite as a "minimalist trainer". I'm on my 3rd pair now. Well it may be lighter than most trainers but to me it just about the most cushioned shoe I have ever run in during 20 years as a runner. I tend to use this for road runs.

On Sundays I usually do 20+ miles off road. Not surprising the trails are a little wet and muddy at present so like to use my Storm Pegasus to keep my feet dry. What do the guys who train in flats wear for muddy runs?

Cross country shoes.

And I know that my good friend LaWoof did experience some massive PRs after successfully getting out of trainers.

But that's beside the point -- while there is some credence to actually getting faster (ironically enough, as pointed out be a writer in this month's RunningTimes who noted that Noguchi lands right under her center of greavity, where she should and I would argue is the result of running 750mi/month is those wonderful Japanese Asics shoes, whereas Deena was landing infront of her center of gravity -- highly inefficient, and I'm fairly sure her shoe of choice is the Trabuco).

The big point is really to improve efficiency (which will in turn lead to better performance) and as injury prevention (also better performance). For anyone who has every found themselves struggling to kick at the end of race because of sore/tight calves/soleuses, that's where to ticket is.

For those making the transition, I recommend this. After your next hard workout or race in flats, keep them on and do your cool down in them. Run comfortably at whatever your easy pace is for a few miles. Note how you run ligher and smoother. Why not incorporate this into a higher percentage of your training time?

At the present time a use the Nike Streak Vapors IV on all my runs. I have used the NB240's xc shoe on one of my longer mud runs, and the traction was excellent. The nike waffle racers are also another great option. As far as your question about peoples times dropping from wearing racing flats vs trainers, I don't think its as much of a performance enhancing abitility that one is neccesarily going to automatically see time improvements because there are so many other factors that determine whether you improve your pr's besides how efficient one is. However, research clearly shows that the more efficient one is the better they will perform.

As far as the Nike zoom elites being a minimalist trainer, I think that it is a bit of stretch, but it is a bit lighter in weight than some other trainers. I personally define a minimalist shoe as one the has an 1inch heel or less. With that standard in mind, only racing flats would classify. The reasoning behind this, is because shoes above 1inch in the heel inhibit one's natural mid-foot forefoot gait. Thus causing more shock transfered up the body. There are many other benefits of minimalist shoes but this is the most important.

I appreciate your well thought out insult. However if you believe everthing a podiatrist tells you then I have some ocean front property in St. Louis Missouri that I could sell you. Unfortunately podiatrist are primarily concerned with selling you products that will help you in the short term for ones alignment issues as well as help there pocketbook. There goal is not to give you the truth about negative things shoes do for you. If they did there business would suffer greatly. So I suggest you try doing some critical thinking for yourself as oppose to believing everthing that other people tell you. Sadly, in our society ambiguity and lies make more money than the truth. Good Day Sir!

ok, then go to any doctor or orthopedic not interested in selling you anything. Ask them.

Alex,

I happen to have a friend who was a very successful podiatrist for 35 years. He had a great practice, and did work with such men as Jeff Johnson at Nike, and Carl Lewis during his prime.

When I first met him about 6mos. ago, I gave him my whole deal on shoes, feet, how they are weakened. This highly successful podiatrist, who also taught a school of Podiatry, confirmed everything I spout on these boards.

I have him a copy of that excellent barefoot running study, and he said, "You know, Matt, the more I read it, the more I liked it."

Now, I'd like you to explain to me how a human who has never worn shoes will NOT get weaker feet from wearing cushy high heels.

trackhead wrote:

And I know that my good friend LaWoof did experience some massive PRs after successfully getting out of trainers.

It would be nice to have some good verifiable results here. Someone's real name, training/racing before and after making this transition. I don't believe I've seen that yet.

You'll have to ask him for sure, but I believe that he was running 60-70mi/wk, and probably doing some cycling and swimming with it and wearing, I want to say the Structure Triax. He made the switch, cut his running to about 30mpw and spent about 2.5 mos building up back towards 70mi weeks. Before he got into flats I'm fairly certain he hadn't broken 17min yet (he is a former bodybuilder).

After he made the successful conversion to flats and few weeks of solid running, he split a 16:01 5km during an 8km (the last 3km were pretty ugly, from what I remember). I forget whether or not it was in Boulder.