I watched Mo progress through his late teens and early 20's, he was a good runner but if somebody had told me he'd be double world champ I'd have laughed in their face, he wasn't even particularly outstanding at National level and was often in the shadow of Chris Thompson. He also never had a kick, he wS a pretty big standard 1500 metre guy well into his mid 20's.
Err, just to clarify, the point I was trying to make is that, even though it looks like Farah went from zero to hero in 2011, there wasn't some drastic difference in the times he was running. He improved his closing speed by about 1.5s from 2009 - 2011, just as he'd been doing almost every year from 2006 - 2011. Since then, his closing laps in low-mid 13:xx and 27:xx races have all been around 52 - 54. I don't think we've seen anything from Mo as crazy as, say, the Lagat/Bekele 51.9 close in the 2010 (12:59 race).
Mo's destroying fields by closing in 52 - 54 in 13:xx races. It's amazing running, but it's not as insane as the previous decade of 52s closes in 12:5x races. His last couple years of training seem to have given him the ability to change gears, his running from 2010 onwards has been tactically stronger, and his closing speed improved slightly every year from 2006 - 2012, but neither the times he's running now nor the speeds he's closing at seem that absurd if you look at his overall progression (except the 1500s, but god knows what Lagat, or even Bekele, could have run on the new Monaco track if they'd been in their primes).
Presumably if his name was Rashid Mackloufzi and he hailed from North Africa you'd be similarly desperate to describe his progression as normal?
Not Cool Bro wrote:
I think Farah (along with Salazar and Rupp) are guilty, but I've never thought they were straight up blood doping or on EPO (unless it's micro-dosing). I've always said that Salazar and crew are using the "grey area" stuff like thyroid medicine, inhalers, androgel (?) and other TUE type things. Stuff that is illegal without a doctors note or at least should be illegal and is breaking the "spirit of the rules".
It looks to me as if you are saying that the NOP Gang is "guilty" of doping because they are doing stuff that you don't think they should. Is that what you mean, or did I miss something?
cali boy wrote:
2 out of 7 isnt exactly wrote:Mo came from being nowhere on the world stage o be completely dominant in 2011. At the age of 28.
This isn't as true as some posters on these boards seem to want to believe. Farah wasn't winning medals, but he was up there with the big guys from as early as 2006 (age 23). He just couldn't kick. He also wasn't as strong tactically--he'd lead large chunks of (fast) mid-race portions, exhausting himself (I assume) doing so, and even though was almost always still there with a lap to go, he couldn't close in the 53s that the other guys were doing. That in part is why there's that blip from the Beijing 5k--the qualifying times of that prelim were 13:46.4 - 13:48.8. It was a sit and kick prelim, and he couldn't kick like the other guys. He was only 2 seconds of qualifying.
Similar story in 2007 Osaka 5k final. Farah placed 6th, but was less than two seconds off Lagat, who won gold. I don't see how you can consider that "nowhere on the world stage."
And in the Berlin 2009 final, where he was 7th, but less than 3 seconds off a guy by the name of Keninesa Bekele. And Bekele closed in a 52. Farah's kick was already improving here--he closed in 54/55 off a much faster pace than his previous sit and kick races.
In 2011 he improved his PRs slightly (12:53 for 5k--I don't know what his previous 10k PR was, but his late 2010 26:47 seems fairly normal for a 12:53 guy). He further improved his ability to kick this year, from being able to close in a 54//55 to a 52/53. Again, not any kind of flag--he'd been improving his closing speed by ~1s per year. He was closing in 56s in Osaka and Beijing, 54s in Berlin (off a faster pace), and now, with a new program that was focused far more heavily on developing closing speed and changing gears late-race, he was closing in 53s. In fact, that's exactly what happened in Daegu: he closed in a 53, off a slightly slower pace than his 54/55 close in Berlin.
Get this: that progression isn't abnormal. I mean, it's superhuman--all the top guys at the world level are--but unless you're going to say that the winner of EVERY elite level race is suspicious purely on account of them winning, Farah's progression from 2006 - 2011 is not suspect at all.
The only possible later blips (2011 - 2015) might be the 3:28s at Monaco, but even those aren't THAT absurd when you consider the context. Both times he got pulled, both times on the Monaco track, both times with a good pacing job. Incredible times, but how many other 3:28 guys have had the luxury of being in races like that?
Again, Farah's placings might give the appearance of a transition from also-ran --> top world level. But if you look at the times, he was pretty consistently improving his closing speed and 5k/10k PRs every single year from 2006 - 2011.
What's this? Someone posting facts? Blasphemous! Get out of here!!! Too much sense in one post. I prefer the baseless accusations and insinuations
(sarcasm)
Mo has trained a bit in the past with Machlouffi, Bob Tahri, the junior champ who got done, Abdi etc
cali boy wrote:
Err, just to clarify, the point I was trying to make is that, even though it looks like Farah went from zero to hero in 2011, there wasn't some drastic difference in the times he was running. He improved his closing speed by about 1.5s from 2009 - 2011, just as he'd been doing almost every year from 2006 - 2011. Since then, his closing laps in low-mid 13:xx and 27:xx races have all been around 52 - 54. I don't think we've seen anything from Mo as crazy as, say, the Lagat/Bekele 51.9 close in the 2010 (12:59 race).
Mo's destroying fields by closing in 52 - 54 in 13:xx races. It's amazing running, but it's not as insane as the previous decade of 52s closes in 12:5x races. His last couple years of training seem to have given him the ability to change gears, his running from 2010 onwards has been tactically stronger, and his closing speed improved slightly every year from 2006 - 2012, but neither the times he's running now nor the speeds he's closing at seem that absurd if you look at his overall progression (except the 1500s, but god knows what Lagat, or even Bekele, could have run on the new Monaco track if they'd been in their primes).
This is interesting. You say Farah is winning now because he is closing faster than he used to. Why is that? Is it a matter of fitness, or tactics? For example, does he have more in the tank at the end of the race because he running more even tempos, or not going out as fast? Or is he starting with more in the tank now?
Any thoughts? Any idea how we could tell which, if either, or these are true?
Was particularly impressed by the tactical genius he showed when breaking Bekele's WR at 2 mile
Sounds to me like he's just developed into a more complete package, while the primary competition has gotten older and slowed down (Lagat and Bekele). I was well aware of Mo when he was 'nowhere on the world stage' through enthusiastic commentary from Brendan Foster and encouragement on his potential like ten years ago.
Unsurprising wrote:
The point is, if the majority of those tests are from a period in which nobody has suspicions about him, then its not surprising that they don't look suspicious
But surely there would be a difference between when he wasn't winning anything to when he was winning everything.
That point is included in these stats.
What part of this are you not getting?
The point is if you take a set of data which is dominated by points taken where there is no suspicion then you're getting less information about the period that is.
Look at the middle 6 data points of shubokova. Definitely doping during that period but look at those in isolation and she's clean as a whistle
To the idiot saying he'd be more suspect if he had a Muslim sounding name. His name is Mouhamad you moron.
TacticalMastermind wrote:
Was particularly impressed by the tactical genius he showed when breaking Bekele's WR at 2 mile
Ironic coming from you.
That indoor record is widely believed to be one of the few get-able Bekele records that Farah could beat. In fact, when he got that record, trolls such as yourself, on this forum, scoffed at it because it was indoors and it was the 2 mile.
".....but his late 2010 26:47 seems fairly normal for a 12:53 guy)"
Mo ran a PB of 27:28 in 2010
His 26:46 was in 2011.
Haha. And just in case it's unknown, he is Somalian by heritage, which is right next to Ethiopia and Kenya. Mohamed Muktar Jama Farah, from Somaliland (northern part), spent time growing up in the neighbouring Djibouti (where Ayanleh Souleiman is from), before emigrating to London where his father was born.
Could shorten this whole conversation if you named an athlete with a similar career progression to Mo. Any track event.
You have just blown my mind. Never knew what Mo was short for....
Now what about my actual point that if he was from a North African country, as opposed to British, people would be far less willing to describe late transformation as 'normal'
Steve Cram seemed more than happy to hang shit all over Makhloufi in London with zero evidence
Opinionated guy wrote:
Hmmm, join this group and almost immediately drop huge chunks of time in your races.
Just like Mary Cain?
So just to get this straight, the story is
8th fastest man in history at event he doesn't focus on = only got there because he had good pacemakers
World Record = was an easy one
5x (soon to be 7x) world champion and unbeaten in 4 years = lucky no-one else is around
When are you people going to give him the respect he deserves?
Or you can stop tying yourselves in knots and just admit that what he has done since 2011 is extraordinary