Marathon, Want 310, How to Tweak Last 7 Weeks of Pfitzinger 18/70

Where do you live and where is the race. If you're training in the heat now and race day is going to be a lot cooler, you should be okay with the paces you are running. Once cooler temps come, your training times will likely come down too.

The trouble is these long runs with 10-12 miles at MP is you don't really know your MP at this point. If you end up hammering these runs, maybe that isn't your MP. It's hard to describe but if you can run those at those paces and stay out of red lining, then yes maybe you are on track to that MP. I can always feel what that pace is and stay above that threshold before you start redlining.

I'm not a fan of VO2 max workouts in marathon training, so I stick with race pace specific workouts. My favorite workout at the end of my cycle would be 3*3 miles at MP to slightly faster.

niceguy

I followed the pfitz 70 mpw plan for my 2nd marathon after running 3:10 in the first one. I think you should continue following the plan as closely as possible, which means stop adding MP to your easy runs if it isn't called for.

Ideally you'd have some recent race results to indicate a goal MP, but it seems you won't be racing until the marathon. You should use the 9mi tempo to determine your goal race pace. take your 9mi tempo pace and call that half marathon pace, unless you think it was extremely difficult. then double it and add about 12-14 minutes. use that as your goal time.

If I had to guess right now, I'd say you should start off at 7:20-7:25/mi for at least ten miles before speeding up if you can.

reed wrote:

niceguy

I followed the pfitz 70 mpw plan for my 2nd marathon after running 3:10 in the first one. I think you should continue following the plan as closely as possible, which means stop adding MP to your easy runs if it isn't called for.

Ideally you'd have some recent race results to indicate a goal MP, but it seems you won't be racing until the marathon. You should use the 9mi tempo to determine your goal race pace. take your 9mi tempo pace and call that half marathon pace, unless you think it was extremely difficult. then double it and add about 12-14 minutes. use that as your goal time.

If I had to guess right now, I'd say you should start off at 7:20-7:25/mi for at least ten miles before speeding up if you can.

There are two 8-15k races in the last 4-5 weeks of the plan. The idea is to race them flat out.

I think 9 miles in training at half marathon pace would be next to impossible for the vast majority of runners (myself included). I know Ritz did 10 at hmp one time, but that was rare and insane.

It sounds to me like you are hitting the workouts. 18 with 12 miles at MP is a serious workout. So I'm not sure that there's really a problem. You are in the middle of the plan; with a taper and cooler weather you might be right in there. But I agree that a conservative start and potential even or negative split would be the way to go.

i would try to schedule a race- ideally a half (or at least 15k)- 4-5 weeks out. I guess there aren't that many this time of year. But if you do the 9 mile "simulation", I wouldn't worry if it's a bit slower than your goal hmp.

Incorrect wrote:

Niceguy542007 wrote:

The schedule calls for a 18 miler this week with the last 14 at MP, then a half marathon tune up next week with a 17 mile run the next day. There is no specific MP workout mileage after this until race day, as this is replaced with VO2 work in the program.

Read it again, there is no HM race in the plan. Races are 8-15k. HM distance may refer to total mileage (including warm up and cool down) Racing a half would be too much at this stage

Wow, you just saved this guy's marathon... in a big way. Hopefully he reads the rest of the plan a little more closely.

Big, big, big karma points for you!

Somebloke-Just so you know, 9 miles at HMP is incredibly hard. I have seen many folks skip that workout completely. Some do 7 miles instead. Some try the whole 9, fail, and still achieve the marathon time they wanted.

Yes agreed, getting in 9 miles at 6:50/7:00 pace seems daunting but I’m going to give it a go. I’d been progressing up the LT runs and got to 6 miles at 6:55, then did one that was 9 miles split as 6@7:00, 5 min rec, 3@6:55. I will give all 9 miles a go at 6:50/7:00 pace, but would claim victory with 7 or 8 miles at that pace.

Places - Where do you live and where is the race. If you're training in the heat now and race day is going to be a lot cooler, you should be okay with the paces you are running. Once cooler temps come, your training times will likely come down too.

I’m on the east coast, I run early so it’s only about 75-80 degrees with standard humidity. The race is in mid September so it’ll be a bit cooler but probably not by much. But it definitely won’t be as hot as July and August.

Giver - The trouble is these long runs with 10-12 miles at MP is you don't really know your MP at this point. If you end up hammering these runs, maybe that isn't your MP.

Yes, sometimes it takes a hard/LT type of effort to keep 7:15 pace during those last few miles, but I usually hit the pace. I think the redlining is probably partly due to the level of fatigue the plan introduces (these runs occur in the middle of training), and partly due 7:15 maybe not being the marathon pace I’m capable of just yet. I will definitely be keeping an eye on both pace and effort.

Reed - Ideally you'd have some recent race results to indicate a goal MP, but it seems you won't be racing until the marathon. You should use the 9mi tempo to determine your goal race pace. take your 9mi tempo pace and call that half marathon pace, unless you think it was extremely difficult. then double it and add about 12-14 minutes. use that as your goal time. If I had to guess right now, I'd say you should start off at 7:20-7:25/mi for at least ten miles before speeding up if you can.

Point taken regarding not adding more MP miles, and I will be monitoring next week’s 9 mile tempo pacing (and effort) closely. If running 6:50 feels like I’m making a 6:10 effort for those last few miles, I’ll use your marathon goal time formula. And yes, right now 7:25 for 26.2 feels doable, but 7:15 seems more daunting. But yes, I was going to start at 7:20/7:25 for the marathon and see how that goes, and if I could make a push in the second half then great. And if not, settling for a 3:15 marathon would be ok too. I would try to shave off those last 5 minutes by the end of this year sometime.

Incorrect - There are two 8-15k races in the last 4-5 weeks of the plan. The idea is to race them flat out.

So if I try for a 15K race, this should be at tempo/HM pace, yes? That is what I was planning to do, but if that is wrong please advise. I think Reed was talking about starting off at 7:20-7:25/mi for the marathon.

Slo-Twitch - i would try to schedule a race- ideally a half (or at least 15k)- 4-5 weeks out. I guess there aren't that many this time of year. But if you do the 9 mile "simulation", I wouldn't worry if it's a bit slower than your goal hmp.

Yeah, so next week is about 5 weeks out and the plan calls for 8-15K race, with 9-13 miles total including warmup and cooldown. I’m planning to race the 9 miles at tempo/HM pace. I would love to run a HM to try and break 1:30, as this seems to be one of the standard measuring sticks, but also lots of people have said that could be too much given this is my first cycle at +60 mpw.

Wow Oh wow - Wow, you just saved this guy's marathon... in a big way. Hopefully he reads the rest of the plan a little more closely.

So yes, you are saying racing a HM is too much, while others say it’s a great measuring stick. I guess it all depends on the level of experience!

Thanks again for the comments everyone.

How are you determining your pace? Are you going by your GPS watch?You said you ran the last 10 at 7:15. Are you sure it wasn't faster? Maybe it was under 7 min. Watches can be 20 seconds off, even more depending....

Have you read the plan?

There is no 9 mile @ HMP session in the plan so don't do this.

There are two 8-15k races in the plan in the last 4-5 weeks. The idea is to race these not to do them at HMP. Why would you do a 8 or 10k race at HMP? What would that prove? Run that race as fast as you can. You might not be PBing due to the fact you'll be going in fatigued but then again you just might. If you cant find an 8-18-12-15k race that fits then even do a 5k. But make sure to race it!!

Find a race that is suitable for you and do that as fast as you can. You will then have to do a long run the next day. The idea is to get you running on fatigued legs. I don't even have the book in front of me but I remember this as I did the plan several times.

I am surprised you are posting about this plan and don't even seem to know what the plan is.....Have you read the book?

Yep, I have the book and have the plan, and I plan on racing the 15k. At an all out pace, that would be about 6:50/mile for me, which is the pace that correlates to tempo/LT pace for my goal MP of 7:15/mile. I should not have used tempo/LT/HM pace interchangeably in my prior post, as that must have confused people.

[quote]Quick question wrote:

How are you determining your pace? Are you going by your GPS watch?

You said you ran the last 10 at 7:15. Are you sure it wasn't faster? Maybe it was under 7 min. Watches can be 20 seconds off, even more depending....

[quote]

I am using a GPS watch, I've used it for five years and it is a reliable indicator. I would love it, though, if I actually had been running all those MP miles under 7!

That's good. sorry If I seemed narky. Don't worry too much about the watch and just floor it. You might surprise yourself

For the 2nd race, try a different distance if possible. It's all about sharpening yourself and teaching your body how much you can push it....

Thanks all for your input. I have stuck with the plan and am not adding in additional MP miles. Also, in the last two weeks the big workouts have been 18 w/14 at goal MP of 7:15 (last week) and then the 9 mile simulated race effort which was 1 warmup, 9 at 6:50, 1 cool down (today), both were fine.

The online marathon time predictors are saying to expect 3:12-3:16 for next month's marathon, slightly short of the goal of 3:10. Of course, you never know until race day. It could be a lot better or a total mess. Either way I am not changing the plan, and am keeping a log, as this cycle will inform the next cycle.

Thanks again to all who responded.