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Badcompany wrote:
yeah roughly wrote:
the actual amount of improvement is likely closer to 4% but yeah it would definitely drop your time by a significant amount
Yeah, it seems to turn a 210 Marathoner into a 205 which is about 4%.
It’s also why it’s so ridiculous when people act like someone caught cheating would otherwise be a four hour marathoner without drugs.
Now, if you want to see a sport where drugs make a massive difference, that would be bodybuilding.
Agree about the bodybuilding although it's comical how nearly every bodybuilder discounts the effects of them.
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LK;JDK;lajdA;LDJ;LJF wrote:
JW wrote:
Just wondering how much improvement is generally seen in EPO users. Will it give you a slight edge, or will a mid-pack runner become world class? Links to good articles would be greatly appreciated!
Watch lance armstrong before and after he started winning tdf . . . it makes you ridiculous if your body is naturally low in hemocrit
Lance wasn't just taking EPO though.
He got popped for Cortisone (a steroid) in the 1999 tour, but it was swept under the rug.
He used testosterone and HGH (but claims he stopped using it after his cancer diagnosis) and he was also taking diuretics (to cut weight).
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itx wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
But it doesn't work for elite E Africans who train at altitude. We have that on good authority from the doping apologists.
Correct. But that's not from doping apologists. It's from people who understand human physiology. Something you are completely ignorant about.
Hi, Jon. Not just me. Thousands of athletes, coaches, trainers, physiologists and of course antidoping experts.
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Adoi wrote:
LK;JDK;lajdA;LDJ;LJF wrote:
Watch lance armstrong before and after he started winning tdf . . . it makes you ridiculous if your body is naturally low in hemocrit
Lance wasn't just taking EPO though.
He got popped for Cortisone (a steroid) in the 1999 tour, but it was swept under the rug.
He used testosterone and HGH (but claims he stopped using it after his cancer diagnosis) and he was also taking diuretics (to cut weight).
Interestingly, several years ago Lance made a presentation to a sports ethics class at Colorado University where he discussed the performance benefits of the PEDs he had used.
He said EPO is a "ten percenter" where he said experienced a 10% boost in performance - he characterized it as "High-Octane Doping."
The other PEDs he took were HGH, testosterone, corticosteroids, etc. He said those were "one percenters" & that he never experienced more than a 1% performance boost - he characterized as "Low-Octane Doping"
Lance is quite a character but if he's right about EPO - then lookout because this PED is never going away.
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Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
Interestingly, several years ago Lance made a presentation to a sports ethics class at Colorado University where he discussed the performance benefits of the PEDs he had used.
He said EPO is a "ten percenter" where he said experienced a 10% boost in performance - he characterized it as "High-Octane Doping."
The other PEDs he took were HGH, testosterone, corticosteroids, etc. He said those were "one percenters" & that he never experienced more than a 1% performance boost - he characterized as "Low-Octane Doping"
Lance is quite a character but if he's right about EPO - then lookout because this PED is never going away.
yes, I have watched many LA clips, and he often states that EPO was by far the most effective drug for his cycling victories.
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according to Lance Amstrong about 10%
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makes sense; testosterone benefit more important to power and speed events, whereas EPO is all about aiding endurance.
Still interesting Marion Jones was taking EPO.
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Chris lewis wrote:
makes sense; testosterone benefit more important to power and speed events, whereas EPO is all about aiding endurance.
Still interesting Marion Jones was taking EPO.
It's more than just strength. It aides recovery and your ability to train harder and more often. It's probably much more than a 1% boost but is hard to quantify in endurance sports.
Alan
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Runningart2004 wrote:
Chris lewis wrote:
makes sense; testosterone benefit more important to power and speed events, whereas EPO is all about aiding endurance.
Still interesting Marion Jones was taking EPO.
It's more than just strength. It aides recovery and your ability to train harder and more often. It's probably much more than a 1% boost but is hard to quantify in endurance sports.
Alan
Testosterone also increases Erythrocytosis which can increase Hct/Hgb by 7%--10%.
This is why men using TRT need to have their blood values checked every 3 or 4 months or so for signs of polythecemia.
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Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
Runningart2004 wrote:
It's more than just strength. It aides recovery and your ability to train harder and more often. It's probably much more than a 1% boost but is hard to quantify in endurance sports.
Alan
Testosterone also increases Erythrocytosis which can increase Hct/Hgb by 7%--10%.
This is why men using TRT need to have their blood values checked every 3 or 4 months or so for signs of polythecemia.
yes, i did read an article on that years ago. Vainio, a very good distance runner, had a bit of controversy over Testosterone use.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.10 -
Chris lewis wrote:
Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
Testosterone also increases Erythrocytosis which can increase Hct/Hgb by 7%--10%.
This is why men using TRT need to have their blood values checked every 3 or 4 months or so for signs of polythecemia.
yes, i did read an article on that years ago. Vainio, a very good distance runner, had a bit of controversy over Testosterone use.
wow, what a weird article, thanks for poasting.
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Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
Adoi wrote:
Lance wasn't just taking EPO though.
He got popped for Cortisone (a steroid) in the 1999 tour, but it was swept under the rug.
He used testosterone and HGH (but claims he stopped using it after his cancer diagnosis) and he was also taking diuretics (to cut weight).
Interestingly, several years ago Lance made a presentation to a sports ethics class at Colorado University where he discussed the performance benefits of the PEDs he had used.
He said EPO is a "ten percenter" where he said experienced a 10% boost in performance - he characterized it as "High-Octane Doping."
The other PEDs he took were HGH, testosterone, corticosteroids, etc. He said those were "one percenters" & that he never experienced more than a 1% performance boost - he characterized as "Low-Octane Doping"
Lance is quite a character but if he's right about EPO - then lookout because this PED is never going away.
As fun as it is to talk about the character Lance, the OP had originally asked about running: "will a mid-pack runner become world class?"
I find it interesting that this conversation immediately turned to cyclists like BBC's Marc Daly (who didn't measure cycling in a time trial), the infamous Durianrider, and Lance Armstrong's endorsement of "10% high-octane EPO". I wonder what are their best 1500m times are? 10K? marathon?
Even if Lance is wrong about EPO as a 10-percenter, he repeatedly gave so many powerful endorsements that helps ensure EPO will not go away anytime soon.
From this thread, it looks like the only runner who possibly benefited from EPO was Cathal Lombard.
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Runningart2004 wrote:
Chris lewis wrote:
makes sense; testosterone benefit more important to power and speed events, whereas EPO is all about aiding endurance.
Still interesting Marion Jones was taking EPO.
It's more than just strength. It aides recovery and your ability to train harder and more often. It's probably much more than a 1% boost but is hard to quantify in endurance sports.
Alan
Apparently, Chinese Olympic weightlifters use EPO for this reason. Increased recovery allows for more workouts.
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rekrunner wrote:
Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
Interestingly, several years ago Lance made a presentation to a sports ethics class at Colorado University where he discussed the performance benefits of the PEDs he had used.
He said EPO is a "ten percenter" where he said experienced a 10% boost in performance - he characterized it as "High-Octane Doping."
The other PEDs he took were HGH, testosterone, corticosteroids, etc. He said those were "one percenters" & that he never experienced more than a 1% performance boost - he characterized as "Low-Octane Doping"
Lance is quite a character but if he's right about EPO - then lookout because this PED is never going away.
As fun as it is to talk about the character Lance, the OP had originally asked about running: "will a mid-pack runner become world class?"
I find it interesting that this conversation immediately turned to cyclists like BBC's Marc Daly (who didn't measure cycling in a time trial), the infamous Durianrider, and Lance Armstrong's endorsement of "10% high-octane EPO". I wonder what are their best 1500m times are? 10K? marathon?
Even if Lance is wrong about EPO as a 10-percenter, he repeatedly gave so many powerful endorsements that helps ensure EPO will not go away anytime soon.
From this thread, it looks like the only runner who possibly benefited from EPO was Cathal Lombard.
But you have disputed Lombard benefited from EPO. You tried to ascribe his improvements to myriad other causes. We can't have you now conceding that EPO might possibly work for distance athletes. Oh, right - it doesn't work on Kenyans who train at altitude. But they keep using it ..
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Armstronglivs wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
As fun as it is to talk about the character Lance, the OP had originally asked about running: "will a mid-pack runner become world class?"
I find it interesting that this conversation immediately turned to cyclists like BBC's Marc Daly (who didn't measure cycling in a time trial), the infamous Durianrider, and Lance Armstrong's endorsement of "10% high-octane EPO". I wonder what are their best 1500m times are? 10K? marathon?
Even if Lance is wrong about EPO as a 10-percenter, he repeatedly gave so many powerful endorsements that helps ensure EPO will not go away anytime soon.
From this thread, it looks like the only runner who possibly benefited from EPO was Cathal Lombard.
But you have disputed Lombard benefited from EPO. You tried to ascribe his improvements to myriad other causes. We can't have you now conceding that EPO might possibly work for distance athletes. Oh, right - it doesn't work on Kenyans who train at altitude. But they keep using it ..
They keep using it because western coaches and agents (some, of course) share your ignorance and push the athletes to dope.
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rekrunner wrote:
Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:
Interestingly, several years ago Lance made a presentation to a sports ethics class at Colorado University where he discussed the performance benefits of the PEDs he had used.
He said EPO is a "ten percenter" where he said experienced a 10% boost in performance - he characterized it as "High-Octane Doping."
The other PEDs he took were HGH, testosterone, corticosteroids, etc. He said those were "one percenters" & that he never experienced more than a 1% performance boost - he characterized as "Low-Octane Doping"
Lance is quite a character but if he's right about EPO - then lookout because this PED is never going away.
As fun as it is to talk about the character Lance, the OP had originally asked about running: "will a mid-pack runner become world class?"
I find it interesting that this conversation immediately turned to cyclists like BBC's Marc Daly (who didn't measure cycling in a time trial), the infamous Durianrider, and Lance Armstrong's endorsement of "10% high-octane EPO". I wonder what are their best 1500m times are? 10K? marathon?
Even if Lance is wrong about EPO as a 10-percenter, he repeatedly gave so many powerful endorsements that helps ensure EPO will not go away anytime soon.
From this thread, it looks like the only runner who possibly benefited from EPO was Cathal Lombard.
Good point on going off-topic (I give credit when credit due).
FWIW, there are some parallels with running & cycling with regard to VO2max. At intense effort both put a strain on CV system (I did 3 yrs of competitive cycling & triathlon back in the day & it really kicked my butt similar to running). And the top elites from disciplines have similar VO2max numbers.
In addition to Lombard, there's sub-elite clubber Christian Hesch.
Interesting story with Hesch who went on EPO for 2 yrs around 2012. In that 2 yrs - he won $40,000 in prize money in 75 races including International competitions, U.S. Championships & local road races.
He bought the gear for peanuts at a pharmacy in Tijuana, and being a paramedic, he injected the EPO himself.
Hesch said in about 1 month he increased his Hct from a baseline 44 to 51.7 (~18%). If he was part of the ABP he would have been flagged right there alone on abnormal Hct relative to baseline.
He was finally caught when someone suspicious of his performances snooped sround in his gym bag & found an empty EPO vial reporting it to USADA.
Hesch said he felt like a Kenyan when on the gear: "Your running feels like what you imagine when you see all those Kenyan runners floating down the road" 🏃♂️
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FTP Pro Cyclist: around 6W/kg
FTP Lance Armstrong EPO doped: 7W/kg
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Armstronglivs wrote:
But you have disputed Lombard benefited from EPO. You tried to ascribe his improvements to myriad other causes. We can't have you now conceding that EPO might possibly work for distance athletes. Oh, right - it doesn't work on Kenyans who train at altitude. But they keep using it ..
Researchers familiar with blood-doping non-elite athletes have observed about 1 minute improvements for 10,000m. A sub-elite athlete like Lombard, especially when he was getting his training all wrong, may also stand to gain some benefit. Or not. No one really knows.
Hard for me to say what benefits Lombard gained from where though, since he changed so many things, including significant changes to his training, and changing his coach, not to mention any placebo effect for taking EPO non-blinded.
For athletes training at altitude, they get a stimulated EPO benefit naturally -- that is time proven to benefit both Kenyans and sea-level athletes.
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So people training at altitude get even more of a benefit?
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