BUTLER!!!!!!!!!

dude when i got my stuff back from butler it was 32 grand.

Ok, before you all knock Butler (a bit late for that) consider this. A small school, with a small budget relatively speaking, how do you turn them into a school capable of competing with the top national programmes?

While Stanford, Colordao, Arkansas, Michigan, Wisconsin, even Indiana can attract the top Americans from all over the country, it is a lot harder to do so for a small Mid Western school. So what does Joe do? He tries to recruit good American kids, but of course tries to get good foreigners too. Recruiting a good foreigner who is 21 and already has a degree from the UK, means that they can go to Grad school at Butler, thus the cost of tuition is significantly less than recruiting an 18 year old American who wants a full ride, and thus less of a strain on the budget. So you spend a few years recruiting good foreigners in an effort to build the reputation of the school. Then with a reputation as a distance running force established you are finally in a position to go after the top American kids.

Academically, Butler is an exceptional school, and highly regarded in the Midwest. Thus you can start to see Franklins's logic. Build up the rep as a running force, as a school capable of developing talent, and then with a solid academic background as well, start in earnest to try to get the best kids around who are currently going to Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin who righfully so already have excellent reps.

Now ask yourself what would you do? Recruit a good 21 year old Brit who can help you come 4th in the nation or ignore him and let him go elsewhere?

yoyo wrote:

worldwide wrote:

1 AMERICAN!!

no kidding. having a couple foreign kids is great, but when you recruit your whole team overseas, it kind of makes it just like some (really really crappy and low paying) pro league.

Are you in denial that the NCAA isn't a really crappy and low paying pro league? When you live in a nation where tertiary education is user pays, then it isn't a bad move to slut your athletic talent for 4 years for $100,000+ degree that will help you earn substantially more in your lifetime than someone with just a high school diploma

well done butler lads, good to see you blokes beating up on some of those bigger colleges. The coach up there is developing a british team like the old Western Kentucky teams of the 70's.

Magnum,

You make a poor argument in saying Butler\'s academics are 'a bit lax':

1. The guys you listed are all pretty intelligent, as evidenced by their grades achieved in Britain. So they easily qualify academically.

2. You listed their ages. They are all younger than the maximum age for NCAA competition, so there is zero problem there.

So, there is no need to be 'lax' and Butler are not being lax in admitting these blokes: The guys are academically able, the guys meet age eligibility requirements and the guys can run fast.

I can only conclude that your problem is that the lads are not American. Well, get over it, foreigners are allowed in NCAA competition.

If there were enough good Americans to go around, college coaches would give American runners their scholarships. Even if running ability were equal between an American recruit and a foreign recruit, the American will always get the scholarship because there is less risk to recruiting a home country guy (no cultural adjustment to make for a start) and so more chance the homegrown guy will be successful. And that's as it should be.

So if a coach fills his team with foreigners it must be because there are not enough good American runners to go around. Accept it and don't bitch about it.

Go Butler! Go Joe F! And good on the lads for being fast enough, smart enough and eligible to whupp ass at the NCAAs.

he finished pretty far back man- when I saw him he looked at me...know what he said?...."I'm Dunn"..who cares? it's a private school with private funds- they can do what they want. If a state school starts pulling in foreign wool- then there's an ethical and tax issue. Butler did pretty f-ing well.

Well said Erik. And well done Butler. great stuff.

I am a personal friend of Joe Franklin and also someone who competes against Butler. A question was asked at the beginning, "How is Joe doing". Joe is doing well after his bout with cancer. All of us were happy that he approached his cancer with optimism. He served as a role model in how to make it happen positively. When he was awarded the National Coach of the Year award yesterday at the conclusion of the meet I was there watching his entire team chant, "Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe". The love and passion they showed for Joe is something not many college coaches get to experience. Joe has built a family with his team.

Why do all of you hold Butler to a higher standard than Arkansas, Oklahoma, Villanova, Providence, etc, etc. who ALL recruit many foreign athletes. Does anyone want to list the number of foreign athletes on each top 10 team from the last five years on both the men's and women's side? I looked at the numbers and what is the difference between a teams 4-5 foreign runners and Butlers six? Sounds like a lot of sour grapes.

Butler is a small budgeted team that has to do things "outside of the box" to succeed. Joe Franklin does try to recruit the American athlete but when a 4:25 male miler, or 5:10 female miler think they are hot crap and want a full ride, who could blame him for getting someone who can help right now. Should he give that over-rated miler the big money they want? Right now, Butler can not out-recruit Indiana, Ohio State, Michigan, etc, etc. But most can't.

I do not recruit foreign athletes and have am torn by the issue. But all of you who are crapping on Butler for what they do. They are playing within the rules and have an institution which is a lot harder academically than many of the other teams who competed in the NCAA meet (a LOT harder).

Joe is simply trying to do the best job he can for Butler University which by the way is what his contract calls for him to do. If his university is pleased with the manner in which he conducts business who are we to criticize?

Thanks for the response. I am glad to hear Joe is doing well. He is an extremely great guy, and I was so upset to hear he had to go through that. Great coaching and an amazing performance!

[quote]Great Lakes Coach wrote:

I am a personal friend of Joe Franklin and also someone who competes against Butler. A question was asked at the beginning, "How is Joe doing". Joe is doing well after his bout with cancer. All of us were happy that he approached his cancer with optimism. He served as a role model in how to make it happen positively. When he was awarded the National Coach of the Year award yesterday at the conclusion of the meet I was there watching his entire team chant, "Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe". The love and passion they showed for Joe is something not many college coaches get to experience. Joe has built a family with his team.

Well done to Coach Franklin for this fantastic performance. How come it is ok for Arkansas to go out a buy a team (JUCO transfers, foreigners etc.),but when other smaller programs do this to compete with them (and other "BIG" programs) they get ripped apart? Haven't MANY of the great Arkansas teams been loaded with foreign kids and JUCO transfers? keep up the good work Joe! Go smallguys!!!!

i was recruited to go there, but i didnt want to not race until my senior year, i knew i wasnt going to be good enough to break up there group and get to travel so i didnt go there. they offered me minmal money, but why offer an american kid the money when they can go out and get better kids? last year they had like 5 guys in the 13's in track, where you gunna find 5 guys in high school that can do that? you arent. Joe does a damn good job there. Every coach can recruit ove seas if they want, so quit complaining because your coach doesnt do it, or because you get your ass beat by them. I get my ass beat by foreignors all the time, but i'm not bitchin.

Well done Butler!

I can't believe the bitterness expressed towards Butler and Joe Franklin. I know for a fact that Joe can't get home grown talent to come to Butler....he tries every year. He has no choice but to recruit abroad, and it has reaped it's rewards. He is a wonderfull man and will always be a great friend to all that no him well!

All of you Americans have only been here for a small time in comparison to the evolution of society, laws's house in England is older than America by approximately 500 years (built in the 1300's) anyone who is not a full blodded native American need to get a bit of prespective, we are just a bunch of mixed raced, mixed cultural human beings, when we step on the line it does'nt matter where your from, it's where you finish.

hey congrats to butler and the coach. 4th thats awsome especailly when you beat stanford i am from wisconsin and i say that they def have the best englishman in Anthony ford the dude is like 2 time all-amercian in cross and still has another year left i think.

Butler costs about $28,000 per year for undergrads. Graduate school is less than half that. So Joe goes out and recruits Englishmen who already have degrees.

So Joe basically gets 2 grad students for the price of 1 undergrad student. It just makes sense to recruit 21 year old grad students that have already run around 14:15 or 3:45 on the track. They are older, (generally) more responsible and serious about training, and faster than 18 year old high school seniors. But they're only around for 2 years.

So for $28,000, Joe can get one 18 year old HS Senior who has run near 15:00 for 5k and might not pan out in college, or two 21 year old guys who have run close to 14:00 and have already demonstrated that they are serious runners.

Joe has a good pipeline set in England, and to some extent Australia. These guys come to America, run faster than they did in the UK, and get advanced degrees. Some go back to the UK after graduation and some stay in America. It is a win-win for everybody involved.

I totally agree with Coach Franklin's process in recruiting...i'm surprised that others coaches don't go this route more often...especially if it can save you money. Most importantly...with these athletes your getting mature, experienced individuals.

I listed the ages of those top five runners only to show proof that Butler was a very experienced team...and 4th place shouldn't have been such a surprise. It's not often that a DI team has 4-5 good, talented runners who are 22 years or older.

As for someone accusing me of having something against foreign athletes...you've got me wrong. As former student-athlete myself...many of my teammates and good friends were foreign.

The only negative remark I gave towards Butler was the lax requirements or the so-called loopholes. I only mentioned this because when I was student-athlete...my unversity was highly recruiting a JUCO athlete from Meridian CC, but we couldn't get the kid in school because he didn't meet our entrance requirements. We weren't the only university who couldn't get him in school. Somehow Butler got the kid in school and elgible for cross county. I would think a private school like Butler would have tougher admission requirements than my state school.

Congrats to butler...what an acomplishment! why on earth do people critisize!!! Jealousy perhaps??

This was the first time that Butler has been able to get all the guys to the start line healthy. The good thing with recruiting outside the US is that Joe can just train the hell out of these guys without injuring our own homegrown talent! How often do you see Butler guys and girls for that matter broken down?! Every year! What sort of crazy training do they do up there?

Butler's accomplishment is amazing, and it is great to see them be successful. I'm very proud of the school, the athletes, and particularly Coach Franklin.

Regarding Butler's academic standards....it is an excellent school. One of the best liberal arts school in the midwest with top-notch schools of music, pharmacy, and business. I'm sure any "bending" of that standard for athletes attending Butler pale in comparison to most other national ranked programs. Butler is a school of high-integrety that extends to the Athletic programs.