With 5 world titles and a WR, is Mo Farah the GOAT (Greatest of all-time)? We say yes...

I love Kenenisa Bekele like he's my best friend, and I root for him above ALL other runners, and I think he's the BEST of all time...but, as much as it pains me to say it, he's simply the BEST, not the GREATEST. The title of The Greatest should probably remain with Haile Gebrselassie.

Even if Kenenisa achieves the same pb's as Haile in the half-marathon and marathon (or wr's like Haile, for that matter), Haile still did something that Kenenisa will almost certainly never be able to do: MEDAL IN 6 CONSECUTIVE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS. Bekele medaled in 4 straight, competed in 5 straight, but broke the streak in 2013 for sure. Bekele would have to become a finger of God and compete into his 40's now in order to re-create Geb's streak (although I wouldn't put it past Bekele, lol).

Haile also competed in 4 straight Olympics, finishing no worse than 6th in all 4. Bekele NEEDS to compete in Rio 2016 and finish 6th or better in some event to be on the same level.

So there's some stuff that Bekele needs to do to 'equal' Haile.

Now, onto Farah. In addition to everything that Weldon, Robert, Steve, and John of LR said....

I'd like to point out that even if Farah wins gold in 2015, he'd have to medal in 3 MORE world championships ON THE TRACK to be in the same ballpark as Geb on the track. Does anyone else really think that's going to happen? Hell, Farah has to win gold through 2017 just to equal Bekele's streak of consecutive golds.

FARAH IS A PAN-FLASH. He looks like a 'goat' now, but 2011 through a tiny part of 2015 is nothing compared to the time that Kenenisa or Haile spent at the top. FARAH WOULD HAVE TO DOUBLE THE DURATION OF HIS ERA OF DOMINANCE TO EVEN EQUAL THAT OF BEKELE.

Farah's not even as good as Bekele. Bekele ran the Golden League circuit (pre-dated the Diamond League) and won it twice. Keep in mind that not every distance had a Golden League prize every year, and the 5,000m was in the "not" category. Furthermore, the 10,000m wasn't even part of the Golden League jackpot. So Bekele, had he the chance, may have won it many times more than twice. But the point is, BEKELE WASN'T SITTING ON HIS ASS, HIDING IN TRAINING, OR PUTTING IN 2 OR 3 RACES A YEAR BEFORE THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS; BEKELE WAS RACING HIS HEART OUT --AND-- WINNING WORLD GOLDS. Farah is simply NOT racing as much. Farah needs too much time to recover in order to race as much as Kenenisa did, so FARAH'S GOLDS AT WORLDS DON'T MEAN AS MUCH AS BEKELE'S GOLDS.

Yet another reason Farah's Golds don't mean as much as Bekele's: Bekele had to run sub-26:50 for 2 of them. Farah didn't have to do anything near that. IT'S NOT JUST A PROBLEM THAT FARAH DOESN'T HAVE FAST TIMES, IT'S THAT HE NEVER HAD TO RUN A FAST TIME TO WIN.

In general, a sit-and-kick gold doesn't mean as much as a fast gold. As a ridiculous hypothetical to illustrate this, let's say the 5,000 were run at 7-minute pace for the first 4600m, and Michael Johnson in his prime were in that same race with Farah in his prime. When it comes down to the last lap, who's going to win the race? Of course Johnson would blow away Farah in the final 400m, but that doesn't make Johnson a great 5,000m runner.

For that matter, who's to say that Kenenisa in his prime, if challenged properly, wouldn't have unleashed an even greater kick than he did for many of his races? Let's select Bekele's 2004 Olympic race as an example. The next best guy, Sileshi Sihine, was more than 4 seconds behind. 4 seconds!!! Bekele ran 53.02 for the last lap in that race WITHOUT being pushed AT ALL by the competition, faster than Farah's 53.48 while winning the Olympic 10,000m in 2012. It's also very significant that, in the SLOW Olympic 5,000m race that followed, Farah ran his balls off holding off 5 guys for gold, and ran 52.94 in the last lap...barely better than Kenenisa did with no competition in a race twice the distance.

Farah is NOT the 'goat.' He is NOT in the discussion for 'goat.' GOAT CANDIDACY AT THIS POINT IS FOR KENENISA, HAILE, AND OTHERS, not Mo.

I'll close with memories of the 2008 Olympic 5,000m final. Let's begin with the fact that Kenenisa ran sub-13 to win it. 12:57.82 to be precise, and he didn't need a freaking pace-setter to do it. He DOMINATED the last 5 laps by front-running, turning in a 4:56.97 final 2000m, and going un-challenged (again) in the final lap (the next fastest guy, Eliud Kipchoge, was 4.98 seconds behind). In the final 1600m Kenenisa turned in very nearly a 4-minute mile, running one of those laps in 59.9 seconds, and doing it all like he's ordering a pizza (easily; just watch a video of it sometime and look for the smile on his face while he was doing it, let alone the ease of his body-action). Now, you tell me, does anyone out there really think that a guy (Kenenisa Bekele) doing all that at the end of an OLYMPIC 5,000m is inferior overall to Farah at that distance when both are in their prime?

...and by the way, in objection to the title of this thread, Farah's indoor 2-mile mark is a WORLD INDOOR BEST, --not-- a world record.

This is a troll attempt, pure and simple. Brojos must be worried about site traffic.

That said, it worked. I"m replying....

IF Mo wins the next 4 medals (5k/10k at WC and Olympics), AND sets at least 2 outdoor WRs, then he can be in the discussion.

Right now, though, he's nowhere close too GOAT. I'd place at least 25 runners ahead of him. Maybe 100...

Is Farah the GoaT? Absolutely not. Kenny B's resume blows Farah's out of the water. I would go so far as to say Lagat was/is a better runner than Farah.

Farah does not even compare to Daniel Komen, who never won any major titles but set multiple WR's at contested distances, in addition to casually throwing down a couple of sub-8's at that obsolete British 2-mile thing.

Until Farah runs under 12:50, he is not in the same class as those who have, no matter how many medals he wins. He's good at 1500, but he knows he'd be beaten in title races at that distance so he avoids them. That's what matters to him, the medals, not the limits of human performance or even his own limits. He's in it for the fame, a prima donna. That's why fans don't like him.

I also think his strange and frequent lapses of health are very suspicious.

siksikayi wrote:

I think that you can fool around all day about who has more medals/better times on what surfaces. The arguments are out there. But I think that one criteria for GOAT should be their role in revolutionizing their distance. Look at the changes Haile wrought on the 5k/10k records - night and day. Farah can't say that - he has no records of note. Bekele can't say that, because his records are a marginal improvement on Haile's. Bannister passed a great milestone, but lets face it, it was going down, and he really just trimmed the progression a couple of times. Haile changed the whole face of 5/10k and brought marathon into the modern era. For instance in hockey Gretzky is the GOAT not just because he had the stats, the cups, the hart trophies etc. but he also totally revolutionized the game.

^^ this. And also what laying the smackdown (lts) said. Geb is the greatest, - longevity is so much more important for GOAT status.... Nonetheless lts is bang on about the best. Noone touches 2008 Bekele, that 5000m was unreal.

Farah has a great 1500, an impressive span in distances, and together with Sleazy he almost reinvented the race tactics for 5k/10k. This will assure him a place among the 30 most important runners in history.

rojo wrote:

And we also say hell no.....

Our staff had a heated debate about this topic earlier this week. We share that argument with you below.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/02/the-letsrun-com-staff-civil-war-can-mo-farah-be-considered-the-goat-greatest-of-all-time/

What do you think?

Just 1 question: is this meant to be serious? Hard to believe? As others have already pointed on: he is not even in the consideration. At the moment it's not even worth any debate. How can someone seriously compare Farah's accomplishments with what Gebrselassie and Bekele have done during there careers. If Farah wins another Gold in Rio and sets WRs over at least two outdoor distances, than I start thinking about the question. Not before.

Mo Farah can never be goat. He benefits from the fact that all the best runners have abandoned track to focus on roads. When Mo did try to challenge the real men on the roads he was taken to school and given detention.

siksikayi wrote:

I think that you can fool around all day about who has more medals/better times on what surfaces. The arguments are out there. But I think that one criteria for GOAT should be their role in revolutionizing their distance. Look at the changes Haile wrought on the 5k/10k records - night and day. Farah can't say that - he has no records of note. Bekele can't say that, because his records are a marginal improvement on Haile's. Bannister passed a great milestone, but lets face it, it was going down, and he really just trimmed the progression a couple of times. Haile changed the whole face of 5/10k and brought marathon into the modern era. For instance in hockey Gretzky is the GOAT not just because he had the stats, the cups, the hart trophies etc. but he also totally revolutionized the game.

That's a good point, and I like that criteria. I will say, though, that Bekele's XC dominance deserves more credit than you give it. It was a while ago now, but he OWNED the grass for years (with one small blemish in Mombassa)

No. An indoor WR isn't really a WR. He's still only the third fastest all time even at that obscure distance.

This is a ridiculous thought.

First, some of the analysis is projecting multiple golds that he has yet to get.

His 5 and 10 times are even n the top 15 of all time.

And who has he beaten in his races?

Geb was beating Tergat and Hissou in their prime while he was trading world records with them.

Farah beating Bekele looks good except when you follow the sport and know Bekele is not in his prime.

They ran rounds in the 10,000 in 1996 and 2000 so the 5/10 double was made harder for Geb.

He would chose the break the 5000 WR in an invitational and win the Gold in the 10,000 at World Championships in 95 and 97.

So Geb and Farah didn't play under the same championship rules.

(Geb did get a 10,000 Gold with rounds and came back to win a Silver in the 5000 in 1993)

You gotta run fast to be considered for greatness.

I'd say a hard "NO" on this one. There is ZERO chance Mo should be or ever will be the GOAT in distance running. Win 10,000 gold in three consecutive Olympics and then we'll talk...

Never Mind That wrote:

*stipe wrote:

Hell, Wanjiru is way ahead of Mo and he's dead.

Wanjiru is not ahead of Mo, that's Prefontainian exaggeration. He ran some 2:05 marathons, tried to kill his wife, and got drunk a lot.

Wanjiru also broke the half marathon world record three times. That's a legit record.

The IAAF doesn't even list the indoor 2 mile record.

Nopes wrote:

No raised to the infinity power.

If No=0 this is an indeterminate form and therefore it's limit can approach any real number (or even infinity)

Or In the words of Lloyd Christmas, "So you're telling me there's a chance!"

But seriously not even close to GOAT status. That 2 mile indoor world record is weak. Galen was on pace to break it through 13 laps and he can hardly break 13 in 5k.

For Mo to be the GOAT he would need at least one WR at an Olympic distance and he would need to win a World Championship 10k in sub 27 with the last 5k under 13. Or win the World Championship in the 5k in under 12:50 with the last 3k under 7:30. Because that's what Kenny B could do.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Farah does not even compare to Daniel Komen, who never won any major titles but set multiple WR's at contested distances, in addition to casually throwing down a couple of sub-8's at that obsolete British 2-mile thing.

Komen won 1997 5k WC (and almost certainly would have won 5k in1996 Olympics if given the chance).

siksikayi wrote:

I think that you can fool around all day about who has more medals/better times on what surfaces. The arguments are out there. But I think that one criteria for GOAT should be their role in revolutionizing their distance. Look at the changes Haile wrought on the 5k/10k records - night and day. Farah can't say that - he has no records of note. Bekele can't say that, because his records are a marginal improvement on Haile's. Bannister passed a great milestone, but lets face it, it was going down, and he really just trimmed the progression a couple of times. Haile changed the whole face of 5/10k and brought marathon into the modern era. For instance in hockey Gretzky is the GOAT not just because he had the stats, the cups, the hart trophies etc. but he also totally revolutionized the game.

Hear, hear !!!

Malmo, did you read the article? I thought Jon was out of his mind as well and said so. That's why he had the pro/con debate. Jon makes some good points so it's interesting to contemplate as I think it's a ludicrous concept for anyone who is 35 plus. But Jon is younger - 25- so the mindblowingness of Haile wasn't experienced first-hand by him.

Les, no offense, but had you been drinking when you wrote this. It's just TOTALLY wrong. A world record with lots of people trying to set it would be the best and easiest way to do it.

IN a world record attempt, you aren't racing. You are time trialing. You get behind the rabbit and just shut your brain off and think. Then you keep grinding after he steps off. If there are other people also going for it, then it's even better. You have a rabbit the whole race.

The reason why it's not done is simple. It's a WORLD RECORD ATTEMPT. No one else can run that fast.

Look at Rupp's AR in the 10k last year at Pre. He was helped tremendouly by having a rabbit for something like 9k. Bekele was on his own at Pre forever.

So a world record attempt with a lot of people is the best. Like in any WR attempt, you time trial is until your body can't do any longer, but when the going gets tough, you've got another guy to focus on and your competitive instincts take over. Instead of letting up and giving up a couple of seconds on the last lap, you dig deep to make sure you win and get the WR, not the other bloke.

-Rojo

PS. One last thing. I know Haile never did the 5k/10k double at the Olympics but does anyone really think he wouldnt have beaten venuste niyongabo in 1996? Please.

I didn't like the long and short race WXC format (watered-down talent pools), and I've always wanted Haile's legacy to remain superior to Bekele's (and think it has), BUT, Bekele's ability to double-back and beat a group of FRESH Kenyans the next day in multiple WXC's was really, really impressive. Still surprised he was able to do it multiple times (2 or 3?).