Hyannis Marathon/half Canceled, No Refunds & No Reschedule

Not everything is able to be part of a legal contract. Charging for services then not delivering those services is not a condition you can legally contract for. They get away with it because the stakes are too small for any one runner to sue. On their side this just nets the organizers an enormous profit. It is no wonder there are a lot of races doing this. Its really unconscionable though

Paying with credit card and then disputing the charge is really the only option for most runners. It reverses the power situation because VISa is toi big for them to fight. It is why I always pay for things with credit card and not a check card or debit card which do not offer the same protection.

mr. obvious wrote:

this just nets the organizers an enormous profit.

Hahahahahhaaaaa... you've obviously never directed a race before.

Race organizing may not be terribly profitable for most RDs but it is a nice living for larger race RDs and those who are part of large well established organizations that put on a lot of races. That is beside my point though

It is lucrative to collect all the entries pay out some of the costs then cancel the race save on a good chunk of the costs and keep all the entry money

Lucrative and unconscionable.

I don't think they are saving on a good chunk of the costs by not having the race. A lot of money has been spent and they are missing out on all the race day...and pre-race day entrants. Most people have no idea what goes into these sort of events.

One of the problems is that this particular race director has a reputation for being a bit unscrupulous...and this ain't helping. But his races just keep growing and growing so he must be pleasing more people than he is pissing off.

Refunding the money is not reasonable...the same way the NYC Marathon didn't refund the money when they had to cancel due to circumstances beyond their control. However, a more generous discount to next year's race would be nice...or maybe free entry into one of half marathon trilogy races...if that were even possible.

But even the administration of free entries and discounts takes time and energy.

The thing is..no one is actually suffering a financial loss. They were out the money when they paid the entry. They weren't receiving anything in return except an experience...oh yeah...and a T-shirt. It's more psychological than anything. At least they canceled before most people traveled to the Cape.

Visa is the one that told me to wait until after Sunday then contact them and they will go after them for services not rendered. While I agree with the decision Im out almost 200 Canadian, if they had done more maybe I would have been ok with it. When ever we run an event in Canada we have to prove that we have insurance, not sure if you do in States.

yarboughs wrote:

It seems like it would be advantageous for these events to have cancellation insurance.

Why would it be advantageous for a race to have cancellation insurance? In Hyannis's case, they already have the entrants' money. If they don't give any refunds (or the minimal $15 offer that seems to be on the table) they're not negatively effected on the financial side. In the short-term I don't see how a race benefits by paying for cancellation insurance. Long-term, are runners going to remember the race cancelled this year and not register next year? History of events who have cancelled one year without providing refunds would show otherwise. Until runners start voting with their checkbooks and not supporting races that cancel in future years this practice is going to continue. At least with Hyannis you have a major weather event which I'm sure is putting massive stress on that community, which makes holding a road race a low priority.

On the other hand, it would be advantageous for entrants to purchase cancellation insurance for themselves, if they care about their $50-$100 (or higher) entry fee. Some races are starting to offer that. I'm going to predict that as entry fees escalate, in about 5-7 years you're going to see a legitimate market for insurance an entrant can buy in the event that a race they sign up for is either cancelled, or the entrant decides not to take part.

Everyone who registered this year should turn up next year and bandit.

On one hand, the attitude of the RD seems to suck and there should be more offered as compensation. On the other hand, who in their right mind would go to Hyannis to run a race in February?? Yes, it was commonplace 50 years ago when there were only a handful of races ofered around NE and you went where they were. Today there is no excuse.

Yes...I live in Hyannis and this race is huge crap shoot weatherwise.

easy to deal with wrote:

ekw wrote:

It seems reasonable to me to not issue a refund. The organizers have to spend money to create an event regardless if the event actually takes place or not when such event is weather dependent in New England in WINTER!

This is why the event should have an insurance policy to pay out the refund if a cancellation is necessary.

All you weenies complain that the entry fees are too much already. Go ahead and add insurance to the fee too.

mr. obvious wrote:

Charging for services then not delivering those services is not a condition you can legally contract for.

It most certainly is something you can contract for. It's called a force majeure clause, and it's quite common. Typical force majeure clauses do not exclude payment obligations, so they primarily protect the seller or provider or services. Depending on the language of your contract (or possibly the governing state law), there may be an obligation to return your pro rata share of the profits, but that's probably little or nothing in this case. In any event, you're certainly not entitled to all your money back.

As for stopping the charge with Visa, I would recommend against doing that. A credit card company will stop a charge at your request, but that doesn't mean that they've vetted your theory or you're shielded from liability. You'd be violating your contract with the race by stopping payment. It's a simple matter to hand your debt over to a collection agency, which will seriously damage your credit even if you later establish that you were right. It's never worth withholding small payments because the risk of credit damage is too big (especially because collection agencies usually only make a half-hearted effort with small payments, so you might get dinged without knowing it). You should work it out with the race director.

If you're so convinced that the contract is unconscionable (believe me, it's not) then you can sue in small claims court or file for arbitration if your contract contains a pre-dispute arbitration agreement.

Running capitalism is ruining the sport. We need self-organized races. When NYC was canceled a couple of yrs ago, a young Buffalo woman ran her own marathon around Delaware Park.

But we need to be disciplined and not register for expensive mega races. I only pay for races that are inexpensive. Here's an example of an ungreedy race director: The running-store owner who organizes a major Arlington, TX race rescheduled when weather obstructed his original race date.

That's why we like him and patronize his store.

Support races whose directors care about the sport.

You have demonstrated you have no understanding of what a force majuere clause is or how it operates. It does provide some protection for sellers or providers of service in the event of circumstances beyond their control but it certainly does not in any situation allow the seller to simply keep the money without providing the service.

Companies cannot ding your credit as a result of VISA reversing charges. They would have to dispute that through the VISA arbitration procedure as provided in their merchant agreement.

PTF wrote:

The thing is..no one is actually suffering a financial loss. They were out the money when they paid the entry. They weren't receiving anything in return except an experience...oh yeah...and a T-shirt. It's more psychological than anything. At least they canceled before most people traveled to the Cape.

Really? You wouldnt consider paying for something (whether a good or an experience) and then not receiving what you bought to be a financial loss?

Strange world some of you people live in.

I'm completely with you here. The trouble, I think, is that the bulk of the fields in even moderately big races are made up of people who are looking more for an "event" than for true competition.

Once, on the old Coolrunning forum, there was a thread where people were discussing all the different places they had travelled to and run marathons and the general theme was that if you'd run marathons in say 36 different states and 5 countries you had accomplished something worthwhile as a runner. I got on and suggested that they all could have accomplished as much or even more as runners by running all those marathons close to home and that what they'd done was really more a measure of their ability to buy plane tickets and rent hotel rooms. I asked why they didn't just run nearby races. No one really had an answer.

A few years ago the Rotorua Marathon in New Zealand was cancelled because of flooding. A few entrants showed up on race day and ran the course anyway skirting around some flooded bits. But doing that, or what the woman in Buffalo did, doesn't give the "race experience" that most runners today want.

I thought the old Springbank races in London, On. was a great model for road racing but it never caught on. You had a whole day of road races in a city park with a road of slightly less than 4 miles around the perimeter. Traffic control was no problem and if conditions did make it impossible to race in the park on the scheduled day the races could be postponed for a week or so rather than cancelled.

No...that's not a financial loss. The money was gone when you spent it. It's not an investment. That should be obvious to you...mr obvious.

Actually, it's not obvious at all...just another way of looking at it. But you're not any poorer or wealthier if they cancel the race or don't cancel the race. Like I said...it's a psychological loss more than anything.

And for those concerned about the actual financial loss aspect of it... apparently you can go pick up your T-shirt and medal at any Marathon Sports store throughout the state...which isn't too bad.

There was an article in today's Cape Cod Times explaining how the race director has already paid all the charitable organizations like the Red Cross, Scholarship and Memorial Funds etc.. Also...apparently there are heaps of expenses the average person simply is not aware of. The T-shirts and medals alone cost $60,000.

When you start looking at the whole picture it becomes more obvious that refunds are out of the question.

It was an interesting article because it also went onto explain the enormous financial hit to the Cape. The race brings in 10,000 visitors...all of whom patronize the local restaurants, stores, hotels etc..

Winter has been quite an inconvenience this year...to put it mildly.

runnerwhoprofesses wrote: I only pay for races that are inexpensive. Here's an example of an ungreedy race director: The running-store owner who organizes a major Arlington, TX race rescheduled when weather obstructed his original race date.

That's why we like him and patronize his store.

Support races whose directors care about the sport.

So, what you are saying is that you'd like other people to donate their time to put together an event for your enjoyment and you'd like organizations to donate their goods and services for the event for your enjoyment. You'd also like an event that does not donate to a charity. It sounds like you don't actually want to run in an organized event but just run alone on the streets... To have an "inexpensive" race for the runner, all of the above would need to take place. The larger the event, the more overhead.

You do realize that everything costs money to somebody, right?

I'm guessing you work. What if somebody walks into your office and called you GREEDY because they wanted you to donate your time for their benefits and you wouldn't do that because you need to make a living. You'd tell them to eff off, yes? So why would a race director be any different? Lawyer? Doctor? Accountant? Secretary? Where do you draw the line to which somebody is GREEDY for covering their time and expenses???

That should be on the organizer. Maybe next year he'll realize he shouldn't pay the charities until he's delivered the service that people gave him the money to deliver.

There are only two industries that I know of where a company that has been paid for a service can simply decide not to offer that service and get away with it. They are the airline industry and the road race industry. It's not any more acceptable for road races than it is for airlines.

I understand that things happen. Probably it's not safe to run a race on Cape Cod this weekend. But that doesn't mean it's okay to cheatl the entrants. The race should have to either reschedule, offer refunds, or offer free entry into next year's race. Any would work, but doing nothing, or offering a pittance $15 discount, is not good enough.