nick83 wrote:
. . . This still doesn't explain why they do not come out and wreak havoc in D1 track and cross, and in the interview linked above, he denies the claim entirely.
It seems to me the observation that FM alumni aren't killing it in D1 is evidence against the notion that they somehow get an unusual number of naturally gifted runners via recruiting or some form of self-selection as hypothesized up thread.
I was just comparing extremes, my 750 person school to another good running schools 6000... FM isn't 6000, no, not large relative to some NY schools, but numbers and numbers, it's larger than average...
And no, I'm not discrediting anything about Aris, don't get me wrong, he's a wonderful coach, but I just want people to see two points that are major factors to why they are a successful school...
And the mileage I'm kind of skeptical about, I've read some articles and Aris hasn't given a particularly clear number, because he does a lot of individualization but it seems like he has most of the guys AT LEAST over 70 and girls over 60 for his varsity 7...
I'd still like to see the FM crew do some big things in college in the upcoming years...
Citizen Runner wrote:
nick83 wrote:. . . This still doesn't explain why they do not come out and wreak havoc in D1 track and cross, and in the interview linked above, he denies the claim entirely.
It seems to me the observation that FM alumni aren't killing it in D1 is evidence against the notion that they somehow get an unusual number of naturally gifted runners via recruiting or some form of self-selection as hypothesized up thread.
I honestly believe it is a matter of starting them off on the right foot, and early. Their 'modified' program (7th and 8th grade) is bar-none one of the best junior high programs around. It's not necessarily a 'gifted' group of kids (given, a significant proportion probably are naturally better at endurance sports), it's merely starting them early. Just like in soccer, basketball, etc. The earlier you start, generally the better you usually are under the right training and supervision. And if talent or gifted athletic ability is such a big deal, it's a matter of getting that talent off the couch or off the bench in other sports and out on the track, and they probably do a better job of doing that compared to other schools. Wouldn't be surprised if they went and talked to their JV football, soccer, and lacrosse kids and sold them on having a chance of being a varsity athlete on the track and cross teams with a little work and enthusiasm.
you have FM runners, parents & rival coaches stating why FM & Aris are successful....yet you insist on ignoring the obvious (dude is simply the greatest HS distance coach ever) and instead focus on genetics, population, recruiting or other factors where FM has no greater advantage than any other school.
It's not a mystery..
It seems people on here take for granted that coaching kids requires more of a motivational aspect, than a genetic or training aspect. I tend to believe that Aris' genius is in how he connects with his kids, and self-sustains his training philosophy. Once that culture is created, and the leadership is protected, it will almost run itself with some guidance. So, if you are looking for a magical training plan or formula, it's no different than the science behind most programs. But, the key differences is getting 13-14 year-olds to give a shit at a young age, and accumulate years of their high school career in running volume so they can be factors. Most programs don't get that level of commitment, just short windows of it.
Maybe these kids that don't do well in college just don't like the team atmosphere in most collegiate programs. Maybe they don't like running. They may just like their teammates in high school, and put the time in for training because they enjoy that culture.
I coach at a pretty successful high school track program, and we have some great athletes, and they could give a shit about running in college. They'd be great collegiate athletes, but they aren't going to train that hard for themselves...
I wouldn't go as far as saying he is the greatest high school distance coach ever. Definitely one of the best.
The only point where I would say he is the best is as a female XC coach.
For guys, there are several that are at equal if not better (in no particular order):
Newton (York)
Tyson (Mead)
Green (Woodlands)
Knight (North Central)
Houle (Mt. View UT)
I know I am missing a few, but you get the idea. Aris belongs on the list for guys, but not at the top.
nick83 wrote:
I honestly believe it is a matter of starting them off on the right foot, and early. Their 'modified' program (7th and 8th grade) is bar-none one of the best junior high programs around.
This is not true.
Lolwut wrote:
Monkeys typing wrote:Lombardi was a fairly successful NFL football back in the 60s. He should be honored to be compared to a legend like Aris.
Lombardi was an NFL football? I didn't know that.
Having gone to a running lecture by Bill Aris and seeing the breadth of knowledge this guy had, I would support the claim that he is a genius. He IS a great coach.The second is that CNY is a great running area. An usually high number of adults race and their average speeds are probably the best in the country. Its very fertile grounds to find and develop high school runners.
CoachJD wrote:
It seems people on here take for granted that coaching kids requires more of a motivational aspect, than a genetic or training aspect. I tend to believe that Aris' genius is in how he connects with his kids, and self-sustains his training philosophy. Once that culture is created, and the leadership is protected, it will almost run itself with some guidance. So, if you are looking for a magical training plan or formula, it's no different than the science behind most programs. But, the key differences is getting 13-14 year-olds to give a shit at a young age, and accumulate years of their high school career in running volume so they can be factors. Most programs don't get that level of commitment, just short windows of it.
Maybe these kids that don't do well in college just don't like the team atmosphere in most collegiate programs. Maybe they don't like running. They may just like their teammates in high school, and put the time in for training because they enjoy that culture.
I coach at a pretty successful high school track program, and we have some great athletes, and they could give a shit about running in college. They'd be great collegiate athletes, but they aren't going to train that hard for themselves...
CoachJD wrote:
It seems people on here take for granted that coaching kids requires more of a motivational aspect, than a genetic or training aspect. I tend to believe that Aris' genius is in how he connects with his kids, and self-sustains his training philosophy. Once that culture is created, and the leadership is protected, it will almost run itself with some guidance. So, if you are looking for a magical training plan or formula, it's no different than the science behind most programs. But, the key differences is getting 13-14 year-olds to give a shit at a young age, and accumulate years of their high school career in running volume so they can be factors. Most programs don't get that level of commitment, just short windows of it.
I agree. Reading the article and following FM's success from a distance, my impression that his ability to cultivate that "stotan" culture provides the foundation of his success -- sharpening the desire in these kids to not only work hard during training, but also to focus on and take care of the details outside of training. Put another way, he gets these kids to think about why they are running -- for whom and for what they are running -- at a higher level than most coaches are able to do, and that's how he builds commitment. Aris helps the kids grow on multiple levels, not just the physical one.
Well I agree about Aris being a great motivated, but his abilities extend far into knowledge of training and physiology was well beyond any other person I've ever met. During the question and answer section of his talk, his understanding of training and research and physiology was just impressive.
He's a bit hyperactive too. He starts getting animated and excited when explaining things. You leave the lecture being believers in what ever he said.
"It seems to me the observation that FM alumni aren't killing it in D1 is evidence against the notion that they somehow get an unusual number of naturally gifted runners via recruiting or some form of self-selection as hypothesized up thread."
Since I am the one who hypothesized upthread, I will have to say I...
Agree with you. This thread has been very useful. I'm doubting what I originally thought.
The number of educated posts arguing for the mental/motivational aspects of the program, especially ones with first-hand knowledge, really makes me lean in that direction.
Surprised no one has said this but HS coaching is more about patent buy in than athlete but in. Think about it.
Btw, which one of these replies is Aris?