How did Jim Ryun run so fast so quickly?

Sciatica Road wrote:

How??? wrote:

A 4:07 mile after 10 months of running.... as a high school er... his times are amazing but the amount of time it took for him to achieve those times are even more outstanding. How?

I agree, the rapid improvement and the stop-watch times WERE amazing.

They did not come from a bunch of long-slow distance training. They did not come from a classical Lydiard periodization plan. The reasons were not just because he started out with an incredible amount of talent. The method of training figured tremendously into both his rapid improvement (the point you were asking about) and the world class times that were eventually produced .

"It takes a good deal of know-how to reach the top, which most athletes and coaches simply do not possess."

~Gordon Pirie

"Quality beats quantity; the speed at which you practice the most will be your best speed."

~Gordon Pirie

"...each individual's "Program" degenerates unless it is controlled constantly. "

~Gordon Pirie

"The third factor accounting for the current plague of injuries is an over-emphasis on mileage in training, especially "long slow distance" (LSD). Without the constant maintenance of a proper balance in training - including sprinting, interval training, weights, hills and long-running - a runner's body simply will not adapt to the stresses it encounters on a day-to-day basis."

~Gordon Pirie

"Following the 1952 Helsinki Olympic Games I met the great German coach Waldemar Gerschler. At that time, Gerschler had already spent 20 years working closely with Professor Hans Reindall, a heart specialist, and with psychological experts. His approach to training distance runners was well ahead of its time. He called for a systematic approach to training, which prepared the athlete's body and mind to withstand greater and greater efforts."

~Gordon Pirie

"Training must be adjusted to the athlete's needs on a daily basis. There is no set formula for how often a fit athlete should do his or her hardest training. The athlete and coach must learn to adjust training expectations according to factors in the athlete's life, outside of running."

"A training plan is very important, but it should be infinitely flexible!"

~Gordon Pirie

"If you are an athlete who wants to stand on the top step of the victory rostrum, you have to be cleverer than your opponents, train harder, race tougher, and never give up at any stage of your running. "

~Gordon Pirie

As talented as he was and as fast as he ran, it must be pointed out that he peaked at 20. According to an article I read on Timmons many others burned out earlier when they could not keep up the brutal training. Even Ryun had a truncated career.

Sciatica Road wrote:

Gary Oldman wrote:

Ryun would have probably been just as good with half the volume.

???!?! Or really, now?!? Where do you guys come up with this stuff?!!!???

Raw intellect.

Gary Oldman wrote:

Raw intellect.

Well, we could all probably agree on the 'raw' part. lol

Les wrote:

As talented as he was and as fast as he ran, it must be pointed out that he peaked at 20. According to an article I read on Timmons many others burned out earlier when they could not keep up the brutal training. Even Ryun had a truncated career.

Did you actually look at all of the results of Timmons' coaching? You do realize it is not uncommon for running athletes to burn-out and get injured regardless of the coach. For example, look at the incredible results of Mihaly Igloi; surely he had a few athletes that burned-out and got injured, yes? Even Lydiard's 100 mile weeks training has seen some athletes burn-out and get injured, no?

"How did Jim Ryun run so fast so quickly?"

Fundamentally: he picked the right grandparents and the right high school (or at least the school with the right coach).

jjjjjjjj wrote:still, you can't view Jim Ryun merely as a fantastic talent or high responder, because he had the swimming background that is also a key to Alan Webb's success, and that of quite a few of our other high school talents of that past, like the Mastalir brothers. And then Ryun had this extraordinary training of high mileage through intervals and somehow he was able to withstand it without breaking down or quitting for quite a few years.

get a clue

unbelievable punishment on a

6'2

Bad Wigins wrote:

Also don't forget that was the 60's and teenagers just wouldn't do drugs back then, even though they weren't banned from sports yet. It was the drug-free decade. So two-year flash careers like Ryun's are totally beyond suspicion. Nothing but talent.

I was wondering how long it would take you to show up.

Your shtick is old and tiresome.

Gary Oldman wrote:

jjjjjjjj wrote:

still, you can't view Jim Ryun merely as a fantastic talent or high responder, because he had the swimming background

Ryun was a swimmer?

Possibly. Please provide metrics associated with times run by various elite athletes with an emphasis at volume, density, and intensity for comparison in order to see what is necessary to compete with the other top athletes in the world at any given time, event specific.

The Sports Gene wrote:

The "High Responder" thing just seems like another way of saying he was really gifted. Jim Ryun tells this story that he was a bad runner at first. Nice story but not true.

He starts running with a group of normal high school runners. He has no idea that he is an order of magnitude more talented than them, so his first few races he is not near his potential. Then at some point it clicks mentally that he is different than his teammates, and he makes a sudden improvement. But the improvement has nothing to with responding to training, it was him figuring out how good he was.

It is always hard to decide for me which is the most amazing:

(1 - 4:26y in his second race as a sophomore

(2 - 4:07y for a sophomore record

(3 - 3:59y for a National HS record as a junior

(3.5 - 3:58y in an all-HS race

(4 - 3:55y for a HSR that has only been bettered once in 50 years

(5 - 3:51 WR and 3:51.1 WR in consecutive years on cinder tracks in America AGED 19 and 20.

His WR stood for 8 yrs and was broken by .1 second.

Captain Leg Speed Velocity wrote:

Superior leg speed velocity.

How could anything be more obvious?

And when you say leg speed, you mean foot speed, right?

Arguing that "he was really fast, so he must have been a doper" without a shred of evidence makes you a complete twat.

DocNo wrote:

Captain Leg Speed Velocity wrote:

Superior leg speed velocity.

How could anything be more obvious?

And when you say leg speed, you mean foot speed, right?

CORRECT! And not only foot speed but raw toe ankle shin speed.

Ryun had the best raw toe angle shin speed velocity of any American middle distance runner EVER!

?!?!

Everybody with a sense of intelligence and maturity has heard how that Bull-malaarkey RunnersWorld article was bull malarkey.

But the article, when it just states the facts, and not 'color' it suit their own pre-conceived notions, does fine, like this nugget Leslie:

"Under his leadership, KU runners earned enough national titles, conference crowns, and All-American honors to fill more than a few trophy cases. He was a taskmaster and a miracle worker.

Notice the plural runners? It just wasn't Ryun that he had success with; far from it.

Well, actually he was a complete twat WAY before he posed that argument. Perhaps you meant that it confirms that he is a complete twat.

You brought this up (as I noted, not for the first time), because you are more than suspicious that Ryun took drugs. You were implying that he did. That you hold this belief is even more evident when one observes the many instances of you having brought this up.

You give a sarcastic characterization of the drug culture of the '60s in order to imply that drugs are one of the reasons that Ryun rose to the top, and that it was not just talent.

The onus is on you to give evidence why this may in fact be the case since your are implying that it is the case. You have not done this.

It does not follow that:

If drugs were not banned from sports and teenagers took drugs then Jim Ryun took drugs

This is not a valid argument. You need further proof to assert this.

Of course, you attempt to weasel your way out of the burden of proof by claiming "I'm not saying Ryun took drugs, I'm just saying I'm suspicious he took drugs"

As noted above, you are not merely suspicious. You have posted this many, many times. You obviously believe that it is a reasonable suspicion.

What is suspicion? It is a belief that something might be the case based on evidence.

Your only evidence is that drugs were not banned in sport during the '60s and teenagers took drugs.

This is not sufficient evidence for reasonably believing that Ryun may have taken drugs.

And to continually imply that this is the case based on said evidence is foolish.