Could Symmonds beat Centro in a sit-and-kick?

OK Malmo I just looked you up, and you ran 3:40. Congrats.

BUT....you are the only 3:40 guy in the world who never worried about 1:46 guys in your race. Because generally speaking, 1:46 guys can run 3:40 or faster. It's a FACT.

Reallly? wrote:

So, your 1500m pr is....3:36? 3:38? It can't be any slower than that if you were never worried about 1:46 guys, and if you did 26 at the end many times. I know you wrere a good runner but I guess I know nothing about your 1500m. Forgive me.

Also, someone in this thread is trying to compare the last 200m of 800m, WHICH IS NOT VALID, due to the nature of the 800m.

3:40 was my best, Pinkowski was slower than that, and neither of us was worried about that "use your 1:46 speed" guy in a 3:45 race. Surely, according to your metric, the 1:46 should have been able to beat us. He got smoked.

I'm not sure why this bothers you so much, nor why you cannot understand what attributes matter in a kick. There are tons of fast 800 guys who can't kick in a 1500. This should not be news.

Reallly? wrote:

OK Malmo I just looked you up, and you ran 3:40. Congrats.

BUT....you are the only 3:40 guy in the world who never worried about 1:46 guys in your race. Because generally speaking, 1:46 guys can run 3:40 or faster. It's a FACT.

You don't get out much, do you? That's not a fact at all. That's wishful thinking on your part.

And no, I was not the only 3:40 guy in the world who wasn't worried about 1:46 800 guys stepping up to the 1500. My 800 best was 1:54, I was worried about 3:40 1500 guys who could run 1:46.

So, just to be clear, you are saying that most 1:46 guys cannot run 3:40. Right?

Here's that 3:36 race. Symmonds was 2:40, 2:54, and 3:08.5 with 200m to go. That gives him a 27.5 for the final 200m, which is great. i don't see him anywhere near 26.0 in any race against a race-ready Centrowitz, because that's what it's going to take.

Reallly? wrote:

So, just to be clear, you are saying that most 1:46 guys cannot run 3:40. Right?

No, that's not what I said. I said that 1:46 800 guys stepping up to the 1500 aren't anything for a 1500m runner to worry about. Even the ones who do run 3:42-45 they won't be kicking down anyone. Am i clear?

1:43.88 Duane Solomon (Sauc) Mt. SAC R Inv 04/19

1:44.58 Erik Sowinski (Nik) Mt. SAC R Inv 04/19

1:44.91 Elijah Greer (Nik) Heusden 07/19

1:45.55 Harun Abda (OTC) Ponce IWC 05/17

1:45.65 Ryan Martin (Asics) Heusden 07/19

1:45.80 Casimir Loxsom (Brk) USATF 06/27

1:45.90 Charles Jock (Nik) Ponce IWC 05/17

1:46.04 Michael Rutt (Hoka) Heusden 07/19

1:46.12 Matthew Centrowitz (Nik) Glasgow DL 07/12

Leonel Manzano (Hoka) Rieti IWC 09/07

(10)

1:46.28 Robby Andrews (adi) New York DL 06/14

1:46.29 **Ryan Schnulle (Fl) NCAA 06/13

1:46.46 *Patrick Rono (Ar) NCAA 06/13

1:46.52i *Drew Windle (Ash) Allendale 02/15

1:46.62 Brian Gagnon (NJNY) Concord 06/05

1:46.67 Brandon Johnson (Nik) Shanghai DL 05/18

1:46.68 -Sean Obinwa (Fl) Florida R 04/04

1:46.71 David Torrence (Nik) Lucerne 07/15

1:46.80 Tyler Mulder (Nik) Beijing IWC 05/21

1:46.81 Mark Wieczorek (Brk) Concord 06/05

(20)

1:46.83 Declan Murray (NJNY) Oxy High Perf 05/15

1:47.02 Ali Alderaan (unat) Oxy Inv 05/10

1:47.09 Ben Scheetz (NJNY) USATF 06/27

1:47.13 ***Tretez Kinnaird (In) World Jr 07/27

1:47.16 Jordan Mcnamara (OTC) Portland 06/15

1:47.19 *Brandon Lasater (GaT) Florida R 04/04

1:47.25 Gabe Hilbert (unat) Oxy Inv 05/10

1:47.29i Nick Symmonds (Brk) World Ind 03/07

1:47.45i **Brannon Kidder (PennSt) Penn State 02/08

1:47.51 **Nick Hartle (UCLA) WaSt-UCLA Dual 03/22

(30)

1:47.52 *Chris Low (LBSt) NCAA West 05/30

1:47.60 -Samuel Ellison (Vill) NCAA East 05/30

1:47.63 James Gilreath (adiTG) Texas R Inv 03/27

1:47.64 *Luke Lefebure (Stan) NCAA 06/13

1:47.66 -Shawn Roberts (GaT) Florida R 04/04

1:47.68 ***Dylan Capwell (Monm) NCAA East 05/30

1:47.71 Alex Ullman (unat) Guelph 05/31

1:47.72 Richard Jones (unat) USATF 06/26

1:47.73 **Hector Hernandez (TxAM) SEC 05/16

**Joe McAsey (Il) Big 10 05/18

(40)

Foreign Collegians:

1:45.35 **Brandon McBride (MsSt-Can) Mt. SAC R Inv 04/19

1:45.37 **Eliud Rutto (MTn-Ken) Jordan Inv 05/04

1:45.98i *Edward Kemboi (IaSt-Ken) Iowa State Cl 02/15

1:46.39 *Keffri Neal (Ky-Can) NCAA 06/13

1:47.22 *Charles Grethen (Ga-Lux) Florida R 04/04

1:47.57 ***Andrés Arroyo (Fl-PR) Florida R 04/04

This is wishful thinking...

Reallly? wrote:

BUT....you are the only 3:40 guy in the world who never worried about 1:46 guys in your race. Because generally speaking, 1:46 guys can run 3:40 or faster. It's a FACT.

This is the real world.

malmo wrote:

3:40 was my best, Pinkowski was slower than that, and neither of us was worried about that "use your 1:46 speed" guy in a 3:45 race. Surely, according to your metric, the 1:46 should have been able to beat us. He got smoked.

I'm not sure why this bothers you so much, nor why you cannot understand what attributes matter in a kick. There are tons of fast 800 guys who can't kick in a 1500. This should not be news to anyone.

malmo wrote:

The important thing about kicking, if you can run the final 200m in 26 or better, you'll be competitive in almost any race. I don't think that Symmonds has that ability at the end of a 1500m

The issue isn't the 26.x 200, it's the 1300 meters of running that precede it. Finishing speed means nothing if you aren't there to use it.

malmo wrote:

My 800 best was 1:54

What? Sub-4 equivalent and 1:54??? How fast did you run 400?

Only fools subscribe to equivants like that. Whats a 4:00 "equivalent" in the 400? Why does that matter to you if you're running four times that distance.

Come on everyone, this shouldn't be that hard to understand. Something similar never happened to you? I remember occasionally they would throw these poor 400 runners in the 800. Fast guys too, sub-50. It would be such a joke, even on tactical races they would struggle so hard and be way off the back by the time the sprint began at the end. Never a challenge.

Occasionally there would be one well-suited for the 800. Fine, that's the true 400/800 guy, but it takes work and some natural affinity for the event to start challenging the true 800 guys.

I get what malmo is saying.

If you don't get what Malmö is saying, you're dense.

Although I agree with him that Centro will not be outkicked by NS, comparing it to his race vs a pure 800 guy is disingenuous.

Since Nick actually has run some decent 1500 times in limited attempts, this is more like Malmö and Pinky having a 1:46/3:43 guy sitting on them in a 3:45 race.

You Know Me wrote:

Since Nick actually has run some decent 1500 times in limited attempts, this is more like Malmö and Pin having a 1:46/3:43 guy sitting on them in a 3:45 race.

That's a fair way of describing the situation.

July 6, 1978 Goteborg, Sweden

1500m

1. 3:38.9 Antti Loikkanen, FIN

2. 3:39.1 PB Phil Kane, USA

3. 3:39.4 PB Bjorn Nilsson, SWE

4. 3:39.7 PB Lars Ericsson, SWE

5. 3:40.2 PB George Malley, USA

That’s my fastest 1500. See that guy in the blue? That’s Antti Loikkenen, 3:36/1:47. That’s the kind of guy I worry about. Not because of the 1:47 (honey badger don’t care bout that shit), but because he was 1978 Euro Indoor Champion in the 1500. He had a brutal finishing kick. He was a badass.

In 1977, I ran a 1 mile race against Mark Belger. Belger was a guy I would worry about. Not only did he have a nasty kick, but he was also National AAU 800 champion in 1:45. He also ran the mile on occasion. Good thing I didn’t believe I couldn’t beat him. My jockstrap broke midrace and I still finished ahead of him despite my “inferior” speed and newfound freedom.

Another example is a DMR race on Princeton’s flat 200m track in Jadwin Gym. Guys today have never run on a track that slow, but it was the best indoor track I had ever run on. Driving through a snowstorm and arriving at out hotel room at 5am, obviously we had our hands full. I get the baton in the lead and feeling a bit fatigued I immediately slowed the thing down, hitting the first 880yards in 2:07, allowing the entire field back into the race. Some of you guys would refuse to believe that Craig Masback, Princeton’s 1975 NCAA Champion two-mile relay anchor, rested and on his home track, was not in the driver’s seat. Honey badger don’t care 'bout no two mile relay sh!t. With 3 laps to go (660 yards) Phil Kane of Nova jumped me and the race was on. Both of us put our balls on the line, running stride for stride, each lap faster than the previous, with Tiny eking out a one yard win, both of us running 4:02. Masback had the fastest leg in 4:01 high, but wasn’t even on the radar at the end of the race.

Henry Marsh, well-known for his brutal kick had very average speed. He was able to summon it up when he needed. That's how you do it.

Marathoner Jeff Wells had average speed as well. But in the heat of battle he became a beast. I've run races with him where we both ran 26x, and I've seen him walk-down Nyambui in a 5000m in Helsinki, coming from perhaps 30 meters back. NCAAs, Penn Relays, I've seen Wells do the same.

Wells' marathon training partner, John Lodwick actually ran a 1:52 880 (yards, not meters) in high school. But I've never seen any sort of raw speed or blazing finishing kick like what Wells could put on. Different mindset than Wells.

How does it apply to you? A lot of you guys express defeat because you think that you were dealt a bad hand genetically. The problem isn't your DNA, its that you don't realize that you CAN improve your speed, and especially how it's applied at the end of races. That's not self-empowerment bullsh!t, that's reality. Learn how to kick and practice it year-round. Rehearse it in your head. Prepare yourself to dig down deep and keep reaching for gears until your transmission runs out. That’s the whole point of those 150-300 reps in SOM.

The point here is to develop a kick you don’t need to have blinding speed. You just need to learn how to maximize your own speed at the end of the race. Remember how Galen Rupp used to be everyone’s whipping boy? Remember the 2008 Olympic Trials when the Black Cactus ran away for Rupp over the final 400m? What happened after that?

Salazar started working with Tellez and Pfaff on developing Rupp’s speed. That’s what happened. I even sent an email to Alberto saying “ it took you 30 years to figure this out, but better late than never.” Soon Rupp started outkicking guys that people said he couldn’t beat. The only way to develop a kick is to practice it. You need to work on it 300 days out of the year, not 30 days. ..

I don't think the gap between Centro and Symmonds in the 1500 is that big, at Monaco 2013 Nick ran a hugely impressive 3:34 off of pure 800m training while Centro was only a bit ahead of him running 3:33 off of NOP 1500 training (which I assume is a lot bulkier and more high-mileage than the way most 1500 elites train).

Would 1:42.95 800m Nick Symmonds beat Centro in a 1500? Maybe not, but if Nick can stay healthy and get another solid year of training in with an endurance boost from the addition of some more 1500m oriented work while still being a 1:43-low (maybe just mid) guy then I like his chances.

A lot of people in this thread are talking about how 800 guys "stepping up" are at some sort of supreme disadvantage to guys with solid 5k strength like Centro or Lagat (Lagat quite a bit more so than Centro obviously) but just look at Manzano for example, he's 1500/800 guy like Symmonds and has taken down the likes of Lagat and Centro on multiple occasions in CHAMPIONSHIP RACES. Symmonds has proven hes got the strength and we know he's got better speed than any of the guys who are likely to be running the 1500 at nats next year, so I wouldn't count him out.

Dewey_Runner wrote:

A lot of people in this thread are talking about how 800 guys "stepping up" are at some sort of supreme disadvantage to guys with solid 5k strength like Centro or Lagat (Lagat quite a bit more so than Centro obviously)

No one has said that.

800m guys are at a disadvantage to the 1500m guys on their own turf.

Dewey_Runner wrote:

but just look at Manzano for example, he's 1500/800 guy like Symmonds and has taken down the likes of Lagat and Centro on multiple occasions in CHAMPIONSHIP RACES. .

Manzano isn't an 800/1500 guy. he is a pure 1500m runner who stepped down on a couple of occasions to produce respectable times, but not anywhere near his 1500m performances.

Symmonds is not an 800/1500 guy. he's a solid 800m guy who had dabbled in a few 1500s, but is in no way a threat to the top 1500m guys.

malmo wrote:

Manzano isn't an 800/1500 guy. he is a pure 1500m runner who stepped down on a couple of occasions to produce respectable times, but not anywhere near his 1500m performances.

Symmonds is not an 800/1500 guy. he's a solid 800m guy who had dabbled in a few 1500s, but is in no way a threat to the top 1500m guys.

I don't know that I'd call Manzano's 1:44.56 just a "respectable time", seems like a time to me that's good enough to warrant calling him a 1500/800 guy (like say Wheating or Ayanleh Souleiman). Either way my point is that while yes, Manzano is a 1500 guy more than anything else, he is more 1500/800 ORIENTED than 1500/5k like Centro is and yet he has proven to be more than capable of taking Centro down on multiple occasions.

Tying this in with my opinion of how good a 1500 runner Symmonds could be I think that if Nick had some 1500 training under his belt (which he DIDN'T have when he ran three-thirty freakin' four!) then he would definitely be able to hang with, and probably beat guys like Centro or Manzano.

I'm not saying that the Symmonds of 2013 could have been a contender in the top ranks in the 1500. I'm saying that a Nick Symmonds backed up by proper 1500m training could be. It's not like Symmonds is locked in to being a pure 800m runner for the rest of his career and it's not like transitioning from the 800 to 1500 is like moving up to the marathon either, it can be done.

Also I if were you I wouldn't I'd say that 3:34 for 1500m is just "dabbling" to Nick Symmonds face...or at all really because it's just kind of stupid statement.

Was thinking of starting this thread too.

A kick comes down to:

- Who has the most left

- Good positioning/tactics

- Quickness / ability to accelerate and make a move

- Top-end speed at the end

I'm picking Centro for all 4 of those, except possibly the last. In a 3:37-3:39 race, I think Centro is a good bet to outkick Symmonds.

Don't ask me why, it's mainly just gut feeling. I'm a big Symmonds fan too. But I think his best chance would be stringing it out the whole last 3-400 in a moderately-paced race.

Dewey_Runner wrote:

Also I if were you I wouldn't I'd say that 3:34 for 1500m is just "dabbling" to Nick Symmonds face...or at all really because it's just kind of stupid statement.

compared to 5th place in the 2012 Olympic final (greatest 800 race of all time?), a 2nd place at 2013 WC, and a whole slew of national titles in the 800, I'd say that a 3:34 1500 for 10th place, nearly 7 seconds behind the race winner qualifies as dabbling.

It sounds like he may be interested in moving up in distance at some point, so he may go beyond dabbling in the future, but that description fits currently.

malmo wrote:

http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/250716-USATF-Oxy-High-Performance-Meet-2013/video/710217-M-1500-H02-Oxy-2013-the-Symmonds-Surprise#.VGML3smOp8E

Here's that 3:36 race. Symmonds was 2:40, 2:54, and 3:08.5 with 200m to go. That gives him a 27.5 for the final 200m, which is great. i don't see him anywhere near 26.0 in any race against a race-ready Centrowitz, because that's what it's going to take.

Malmo that makes absolutely no sense. If Symmonds ran a 27.5 in a 3:36 race, why would you think he couldn't run a 26 in a race 4-10 seconds slower? Where do you think that extra energy is going to go???