mg328 wrote:
Ho Hum wrote:Flynn went on to break 14 that year and later ran a 2:13. He really was pretty good, embezzlement aside.
It was two years later that he broke 14. I don't think he was higher than 4th in any of the track national races in 2010 and his 5K was around 14:25.
Oops, you're right. Got my years mixed up.
Very rarely a mythically strong D3 team (1993 or 2009 NCC for example) might possibly enter the conversation, but it would take a lot of luck.
For example, I don\'t think even the best NCC or UW-? teams would qualify out of the Great Lakes region.
If the top D3 schools were allowed to compete in the South region, maybe once every 10 years a very special team might qualify.
I do think guys like Henderson, Dan Mayer, or Crain might be D1 all americans, but that\'s only speculation, of course.
Koppenberg wrote:
Very rarely a mythically strong D3 team (1993 or 2009 NCC for example) might possibly enter the conversation, but it would take a lot of luck.
For example, I don't think even the best NCC or UW-? teams would qualify out of the Great Lakes region.
If the top D3 schools were allowed to compete in the South region, maybe once every 10 years a very special team might qualify.
I do think guys like Henderson, Dan Mayer, or Crain might be D1 all americans, but that's only speculation, of course.
Speculation? Danny Henderson ran the D1 NCAA meet in 1978, two days after winning D3, and finished 10th.
Illinoisphotographer wrote:
I'm not on a "high horse" and never claimed my 2:33 is great or anything. It's not a bad time for someone who only ran 25:52 in an XC 8k, that's all.
One of my college teammates never broke 26:00 for 8k (despite a strong work ethic and dedication) and soloed 2:28 in his first and only marathon FTW.
And In Other News wrote:
Illinoisphotographer wrote:I'm not on a "high horse" and never claimed my 2:33 is great or anything. It's not a bad time for someone who only ran 25:52 in an XC 8k, that's all.
One of my college teammates never broke 26:00 for 8k (despite a strong work ethic and dedication) and soloed 2:28 in his first and only marathon FTW.
Was that the kid in Grand Rapids yesterday? He looked super smooth.
two line gradebook wrote:
d2- would podium. D1 is overrated. Look how adams beat the ncaa champs colorado a few years ago
d3- depends on the year.. I think one year SUNY Cortland beat a ton of teams that made the big dance and was a point behind villanova who was a top 20 team. That north central team too a few years ago could have been top 15.
Adams never beat Colorado.
Koppenberg wrote:
Very rarely a mythically strong D3 team (1993 or 2009 NCC for example) might possibly enter the conversation, but it would take a lot of luck.
For example, I don't think even the best NCC or UW-? teams would qualify out of the Great Lakes region.
If the top D3 schools were allowed to compete in the South region, maybe once every 10 years a very special team might qualify.
I do think guys like Henderson, Dan Mayer, or Crain might be D1 all americans, but that's only speculation, of course.
North Central would be in the Midwest Region.
Anyway, I couldn't name a single runner on the team or how fast their times are, but some pretty crappy D1 teams qualify for D1 nationals every year.
1986 D1 Tucson AZ
Arnie Schraeder. 11th place UW-Stevens Point D3
Yes they did. They hammered them actually.
I don't think that CU team won NCAA's that year though.
If Flynn went on to run 2:13 at 24, then he had a lot of undeveloped talent in running D3 and would likely have developed that with the far better D1 competition, had he been running at a top school.
The all-time D3 team (granted that many of these guys would have run faster with more competition and certainly if they were training with top D1 guys all the time) might very well be able to get a top 5, or possibly even top 3, D1 xc result. There are some fine D1 records at 400/800/1500m with Rock and Symmonds, plus Leer.
800 Meters
1:45.83
Nick Symmonds
Willamette
2006
USATF Championships (2)
1:47.56
Clive Terrelonge
Lincoln
1991
NCAA Championships (1)
1:47.83
Nick Guarino
Fredonia State
2011
New Jersey Invitational
1:48.25
David Juiliano
CMS
2002
Maine Distance Festival
1:48.26
Karl Paranya
Haverford
1997
NCAA Championships (1)
1:48.42
Mike Hutton
St. Thomas
2012
American Miler’s Club #3
1:48.45
Jimmy O’Brien
Ohio Northern
2008
Oregon Twilight
1:48.55
Matt Groose
UW-Oshkosh
2002
Hillsdale
1:48.64
Jake Waterman
Wabash
2012
Polytan Invitational
1:48.69
Emmanuel Bofa
Whitworth
2010
Point Loma Invitational
1500 Meters
3:39.83
Karl Paranya
Haverford
1997
Stuttgart
3:40.06
Will Leer
Pomona-Pitzer
2007
USATF Championships
3:40.91
Nick Symmonds
Willamette
2006
Nike Farm Team Invite
3:41.56
Tom Tuori
Rochester
1987
New England TAC Champs
3:43.15
Sandu Rebenciuc
Augustana
1992
Indianapolis
3:43.39
Chris Brown
Brandeis
2012
NB Boston Twilight #1
3:43.75
Jason Bernstein
Haverford
2001
Boston Hi-Performance
3:44.50
Kevin Foley
Haverford
1982
NCAA Championships (1)
3:44.71
Liam O’Neill
Haverford
1986
Princeton Invitational
3:44.71
Macklin Chaffee
Williams
2009
NB Boston Twilight #3
3000m Steeplechase
8:39.80
Jim Gathje
St. John’s
1985
USA Championships
8:43.78
Peter Kosgei
Hamilton
2008
Penn Relays (2)
8:45.77
Michael LeDuc
Connecticut
2014
NCAA Championships (1)
8:48.33
Gordon Innes
Humboldt State
1977
NCAA Championships (1)
8:48.60
Pat Weiler
Aquinas
1977
NCAA Championships (2)
8:50.49
Jeff Hyman
St. Thomas
1986
NCAA Championships (2)
8:50.66
Jack Davies
Middlebury
2013
NCAA Championships (2)
8:50.70
David Patterson
Tufts
2001
IC4A’s
8:51.01
Nick Kramer
Calvin
2012
NCAA Championships (1)
8:51.30
John Lumkes
Calvin
1990
8:51.30
Avi Bregman
Haverford
2014
Larry Ellis Invitational
5000 Meters
13:50.0
Dan Henderson
Wheaton (IL)
1978
Celja, Yugoslavia
13:53.2
Dale Kramer
Carleton
1977
Drake Relays
13:57.02
Tim Nelson
UW-Stout
2012
Mt. SAC Relays
13:57.0
Arnie Schraeder
UW-Stevens Point
1986
Drake Relays
13:59.21
Jordan Schilit
Haverford
2012
Larry Ellis Invitational
14:00.53
Ryan Bak
Trinity (CT)
2003
Penn Relays
14:00.63
Dan Mayer
North Central
1994
Dr. Keeler Invitational
14:01.62
Chris Stadler
Haverford
2014
Larry Ellis Invitational
14:04.90
Seamus McElligott
Haverford
1991
Princeton Invitational
14:05.06
John Crain
North Central
2014
Drake Relays
10000 Meters
28:48.4
Dan Mayer
North Central
1994
Chicagoland Championships
28:52.73
John Crain
North Central
2014
Stanford Invitational
29:11.37
William Jones
Franciscan
2013
Bison Outdoor Classic
29:14.34
Seamus McElligott
Haverford
1991
Penn Relays
29:14.95
David Valentine
North Park
1983
NCAA Championships (1)
29:21.08
Macharia Yuot
Widener
2005
Stanford Invitational (10)
29:23.2
Dan Henderson
Wheaton (IL)
1979
29:23.62
Michael Schmidt
Middlebury
2012
Stanford Invitational
29:26.70
Nick Manciu
St. Thomas
1983
NCAA Championships (2)
29:30.22
Gary Wasserman
Nebraska Wesleyan
1993
NCAA Championships (2)
Results of the d3 guys that ran d1 nationals -
http://pe.pomona.edu/sports/wxc/HistoriansReport/Div-III-at-Div-I-meet.htm
Unsurprisingly pretty varied results given that they were running just two days after d3 nats, but the d3 winners placed as follows...
19
70
46
10
80
101
50
60
61
11
73
66
56
35
So 4 of 14 were d1 all-americans, with an average placing of 52nd. Think it's fair to say that that average would have been top 35 if those guys had been running fresh.
Really long time ago. Garry Henry ran 2920 at d2 nationals then finished 5th at d1s, 1980. I believe this was the year Utep set the unbreakable record of 17 points (or about that) with a African top seven, mostly Kenyan, but not all.
Henry ran 210 at Fukuoka a couple of weeks lster which wad a collegiate world record. Several of uteps guys were sub 28 track guys.
NC Men are top 5 team in the D-1 Great Lakes.
NCC XC in their best year might have qualified for DI ('93?) nationals, but they would have had to shoot their wad to get there, and would end up DFL.
DIII is about as competitive as a 2nd tier DI conference. Check the stats
>95% of
NCC XC in their best year might have qualified for DI ('93?) nationals, but they would have had to shoot their wad to get there, and would end up DFL.
DIII is about as competitive as a 2nd tier DI conference. Check the stats
>95% of sub410/sub 9 runners go to DI schools. And if you are not 410/8xx by the age of 17, you are not really destined for greatness. I wish my DIII coaches had told me this. Instead they pumped me up w/ ideas that we were as good etc. Nothing is further from the truth.
How many sub3:50 runners are in DIII vs....the ACC or Big East? Its not even close....
curiousobserver wrote:
So 4 of 14 were d1 all-americans, with an average placing of 52nd. Think it's fair to say that that average would have been top 35 if those guys had been running fresh.
Which is to say they would have gotten nothing when AA was top 25 or top 15.....
Based off times posted this year, and given that the very top d3 and d2 teams don't have the luxury of getting dragged to fast times, but instead have to push the race themselves, I'd put NC men between 7th and 10th at the Wisconsin Adidas Invite... Now take into account the teams that weren't there, and top 20 at nationals would be a reasonable finish.. Probably top 3 in Big Tens as well
Holla at ya boi wrote:
Based off times posted this year, and given that the very top d3 and d2 teams don't have the luxury of getting dragged to fast times, but instead have to push the race themselves, I'd put NC men between 7th and 10th at the Wisconsin Adidas Invite... Now take into account the teams that weren't there, and top 20 at nationals would be a reasonable finish.. Probably top 3 in Big Tens as well
You are totally high....
Talking about a1500m on a xc thread, n00b alert
Take NCC team time at Notre Dame 2:02.53 in the gold race. Put that team time in the blue race with all the D1 teams and they finish 21st of 25.