Ran it 81-85 wrote:
If Trautmann, Centrowitz, Liqouri, Webb ran it in it's current state they would be sub 12. Cheserek has the record at 11:55.
None of them was near 8:40 in the 2 mile. Cheserek was. They probably could have run close to 8:45-8:50 if it was their primary event. So maybe you're right after all, 12:00.
In '71-'73, the 2.5 mile start was a curved line at the south end of the fields and the pack simply headed to the cowpath, feeling the rumbling along the way.
In '72, the year of that photo, there was little rain during the season so by the final races everyone who was not at the front (which would include me) finished with a coating of dirt, including on teeth and eyeglasses, and there was a cloud-of-dust as you approached the cowpath.
Gunny wrote:
Runner in the center is Kevin McCarey of Cathedral Prep and the year is 1971. Kevin ran 12:25, the second fastest ever on the course at that time behind only the 12:24 of Marty Liquori.
McCarey graduated the year prior.
Ostberg's 3200 pr is 8:52 and he broke 12.Jimmy Crack Corn wrote:
Ran it 81-85 wrote:If Trautmann, Centrowitz, Liqouri, Webb ran it in it's current state they would be sub 12. Cheserek has the record at 11:55.
None of them was near 8:40 in the 2 mile. Cheserek was. They probably could have run close to 8:45-8:50 if it was their primary event. So maybe you're right after all, 12:00.
Who the F is Ostberg?
Trautman ran 8:05 for 3000m which is low 8:40s and Webb ran 8:45.
are you kidding me? wrote:
It's a huge difference. In the past the back loop was sand and rocks. Now it's paved with packed cinders, much like a well-maintained cider track. There is no comparison.
This but to say "no comparison" is a bit of an exaggeration.
The footing is better now but those railroad ties are a pain in the butt.
Antoher factor: the length of the course. The course used to be 4000m but then changed to a 2.5 mile course in the early 2000's. This is about a 2-3 sec difference. Not much, but it is something.
qwe wrote:
Antoher factor: the length of the course. The course used to be 4000m but then changed to a 2.5 mile course in the early 2000's. This is about a 2-3 sec difference. Not much, but it is something.
No. The course was always 2.5 miles idiot.
Great feedback Harriers. Based on the responses, I conclude about 15 secs. faster, give or take, than the '70s & '80s.
I ran the 5 mile course the last year before the upgrade and the next year after the improvements.
My times were about 30 seconds faster after upgrade each time I ran it ( we raced VCP twice a season).
Daaaa wrote:
Trautman ran 8:05 for 3000m which is low 8:40s and Webb ran 8:45.
Plus Centrowitz was 3:43 for 1500 and Liqouri was Sub 4 mile. If you look at the times of the guys now running as fast or faster it says the course runs faster today.
Ostberg's 8:52 or whatever is from last year. We'll see how well he does this spring. Rosa, Ches etc are no slouches. The kids running 12:20 are 4:15 milers. There's a lot of quality in this era. Who knows how fast the great ones of the past would run on this current course? I too would have loved to see Hudson, Salazar, Trautman, Gregorek, Osto, etc run on the curent course. I'd also like to see Gant Fisher attack it. I believe Webb ran it after it was redone when he was a junior. The kids today are good.
Ostberg's 3200 pr is 8:52 and he broke 12.[/quote]
A few things: Ostberg is currently in much better shape than 8:52. He ran close to Cheserek's time and Cheserek ran 8:40, plus Ostberg demolished the times (in past years and this year) of sub 9 and sub 9:10 runners. Also, Ostberg is a really tough runner, one of the toughest I've seen, and he runs better at longer distances and on tough courses as compared to your average top high schooler. He's in ridiculously good shape right now.
Kevin McCarey graduated from Cathedral in June 1972. The picture shows him in the cross country season of 1971. Matt was a junior. Kevin defeated Matt and Mike Brown for the Catholic City Champs running 12:25.
Gunny wrote:
Kevin McCarey graduated from Cathedral in June 1972. The picture shows him in the cross country season of 1971. Matt was a junior. Kevin defeated Matt and Mike Brown for the Catholic City Champs running 12:25.
What is it you are not understanding about my post?
malmo wrote:
That's not McCarey. There's no one in that photo who even remotely looks like Kinky.
The photo is from the 1972 Easterns, the so-called "Maryland Invasion", when kids from my neighborhood took three out of the top four spots, and Dave Sandridge (left) broke Marty Liquori's course record. I'm running in single file behind Centrowtiz, Gene McCarthy and Irv Fannell.
The runner in the middle is Merril Noden, sometime contributing writer for Sports illustrated and Princeton grad.
I should know, that photo belong's to a friend of mine, and I'm the one who scanned it and put it up on Letsrun.
1972 October 21 1972 Eastern Championships, Van Cortlandt Park, NY
1. 12:20.9 Dave Sandridge, Parkdale, MD (course record, previous 12:23.2 Marty Liquori Essex Catholic, NJ)
2. 12:24.5 Matt Centrowitz, Power Memorial, NY
3. 12:30 Al Naylor, Northwestern, MD
4. 12:39 George Malley, DuVal, MD
5. 12:40 Tim Conheeney, Paramus Catholic, NJ
6. 12:43 Mark Ogden, Molloy, NY
7. 12:44 Tom Hummel, Molloy, NY
8. 12:45 Richard Axtell, Bernards, NJ
9. 12:45 James McIntyre, Queen of Peace, NY
10. 12:48 Chris Inman, Essex Catholic, NJ
11. 12:50 Ken Moliski, Christian Brothers, NJ
12. 12:56 Mark Gilman. Bishop McDevitt, NY
13. 12:58 Mark Yellin, Haddon Township, NJ
14. 12:59 Bill O'Brian, St Josephs, NY
15. 13:00 Mike Elden, Haddon Township, NJ
16. 13:02 Merrell Noden, Lawrenceville, NJ
17. 13:03 Mike Hagen, Suffern, NY
18. 13:06 Eric Standifer, DuVal, MD
19. 13:07 Rob Cook, Parkdale, MD
20. 13:11 Mark Danile, LaSalle, PA
21. 13:12 Bill Huntley, CBA, NJ
22. 13;13 F. Kirkland, Parsippany, NJ
23. 13:14 A. Quagliella, Pilgram, RI
24. 13:15 Steve Starack CBA, NJ
25. 13:16 Chris Proch, Parkdale, MD
The start:
Dave Sandridge, the winner
Al Naylor, 3rd place
New York Times
The race is over.
Van Cortlandt Park HS course maps.
http://oi57.tinypic.com/330wllt.jpg
1971 Easterns: Winner Gordon Oliver B-CC 12;34
Maryland had a tough state back then, Malmo.
I think this is Cemetery Hill, or Vault Hill, or Heartbreak Hill, whatever you want to call it.
