5000m training and coaching methods

Hey guys. Interesting thread and some very good points. I don't really have anything substantive to add but was just wondering something. It seems the person to ask about how to run fast 5Ks is Bob Kennedy. The guy ran under 13 a couple of times and ran under 13:10 a ton of times for a # of years. Is there any info on the training BK did all year around when he was running 5000's?

Darkness, You funny man.

Wow thanks Joe. It gives me a lot to think about. We must have seen eachother in June. One of my girls won the womens 10K in 33:51 in the rain and another took her 10k from 37:00 to 35:02 (first time she ever ran it to run fast and ran 17:35, 17:27 splits) so that was a good note :)

I also believe in a solid base of tempo runs. Last fall we did 2 "Tempo runs" per week of 5 to 8 miles at around 6:30 to 6:20 pace. Off that I saw a 27:30 5 mile road race in the rain so I do believe in the long tempo runs. I my plan is an iterative process so this discussion is great for me.

I am very happy with the feed back about my schedual. I had a thought that it was over the top, missing some things, too much of others, and your (everyones) feedback is what i was hopping for..

thanks

PurdueGrad

Purdue Grad

Congratulations. You star a great new thread.

Just some conderations as my contribute to this debate.

At this point of the debate that i would discriminate 3 aspects concerning a 5000m target goal. One that´s TRAINING, a second one that´s SEASON PERIODISATION and the third one that´s the COMPETITION schedule. Since that 3 ones aspects are connect, they work togheter as a whole. If you use a single year round seson which the the target goal that´s just summer track 5000m, that made a diference in terms of training and specifics that if you do fall crosses or winter crosses or indoor runs. If you start yoir season to do 4-5 track competitions as a peak for the 5000m target goal, that you may do (!)at least 1-2 1500m track runs and more intersting 2-3 3000m track runs before the 5000m peak, that may turn on your training schedule.

Thus i think that the training profile for a 5000m run is confined what are your periodisation and what´s that your run schedule.

Second point is just a comment. As far as i undrestand of the american trainig standard profile (and not just in America), actually i see a large tendency to the use of that \"interval workouts - long or short sets with ultra short recover duration, like you quote 16X400m in 57 with 30sec recover, but also miles with 30sec to 60sec intervals at maximum pace or close to the maximum pace capacity for the number pf sets that you intend to do. Ther´s a large tendency among the american to think that they get benefits from this training standards.

In my opinion this is a complete non-sense and a large misundrestanding what the intervals are.

I myself i´m a great fan of the short reps/short intervals - and with active pause. But to use that as the youbamericans do and close to the competition period this is to turn concepts to the recycle bin. Close to the target competitions you must longer the recover intervals and not cut off. If yo want to test your shape use a time trial or get an entry in a race - with the adequate before and after period of recover needed, but don´t use that crazy tough and hard anaerobic intervals with ultra short recover regularly. Short reps in your 30sec recover undre the intensity that you use - that´s a nonsense and long reps with that innadequate few seconds to 1 min recover that´s major nonsense either.

You need to study the essence of te interval training in the Freiburg (german school) to know that what i´m saying that´s true. Diffrent things are: classic interval training (that of uncomplete recover pauses) Intensive intervals or Extensive Intervals, other are Alternate intervals or \"Intermittent\" as Renato Canova call that (the fartlek are included here also), other are Repetition workouts training or \"Tempolauf\" as the German call them.

It seems to me that as far as the original ideas they are spread and people uses other names to refeer the same reality - in this case specifics the original concept is lost completly. Thus it borns some \"hibrid\" workouts like that ones of 400s for 57s intervals with 30sec recover for guys that aren´t able to sub 13:00 in the 5000m. In a logic that you train sets too much faster than Race Pace you may use longer pauses mainly. In a logic that you use long sets (1000m to 3000m)closer to Race Pace you may work in EXTENSIVE DIRECTION (more sets), not INTENSIVE (that you try to go faster or less recover duration). In that long sets you may reduce the recover period just when you are able to run more sets in the Race Pace.

Mr. Cabral, thank you for joining this disscusion. If you could please answer two questions I have.

1. Please expain the benefit, purpose of shorter recovery early in the season and longer recovery late in the season.

2. Please tell me how to best implement HILL training.If we are talking of an American collegiate track season where the runner has done a fall cross country season Sept through November and now is training getting ready for outdoor season (not emphasis on indoor track season) looking to run well at Mt.Sac Invitational,StanforInvitational these are in the months of April, May. And also run well at NCAA championships in June.Please tell me how to use hill training for both the

800/1500m runner and the 300m/5000m runner.

thanks je

Antonio Cabral wrote:

I myself i´m a great fan of the short reps/short intervals - and with active pause.

Antonio,

Is this right that Carlos Lopes uses the inactive pauses for 1 minute reps, i.e. 1 minute running and 1 minute standing?

I do these both ways, with active and inactive and I'm still not sure which is better.

For example doing 40x 1 minute at 5k pace with 30s rest is one of my favorite sessions, or a different time I might do 30x 1 minute at 5k pace with 1 minute active.

These are rather moderate rhythm attrition type workouts.

I am curious your opinion of these?

Thanks.

I would like to share a key workout that I include in my weekly schedule close to important 5k competition events.

Most races are won with a surge to break competition in the middle of the race, or a fast kick towards the end. Since I lack the speed and the confidence in my kick, I usually surge right before the 3200 meter mark.

My key workout is a 3200 meter simulation on the track. The first 2800 meters is a little slower than my potential race pace. About 10 seconds per mile slower. Then, I surge the last 400 meters.

I do this workout for several weeks before the competition. It has done great things with my performance.

bump

All have to do with Race Pace relation - and subsidiary paces or support paces, as Renato Canova defines it - that the paces imediately slower and faster than race pace are the specific ones for the specifics - workouts.

In my opinion if you do shorter intervals (but actives) you aren´t able (you must´n´t) to carry on a pace very faster, faster tha race pace but closer. Ex: you are training for a 5000m track run and youe estimate RPTD that´s 14:10 thus 2:50 by kilo pace, thus 72sec by 400m. If you aren´t able yet to cover 4-7X1000m in 2:50, mainly because you are distant from the target run (winter or early spring), then an option will be to do 10-15X400m in 100%RP less 2.5% (72.0-1.8=70.2) to 100%RP less 5%(72.0-3.6=68.4). Because the set distance aren´t longer or to say that each 400m set dsuration that´s short you are able to do sort intervals with active pause, very good to train lactic acid management, and you get contact with pacs close to RP for your 5000m runs out of season and in a moment that eventually you have no fast workouts except for the speed.

But while doing 10-15X400m with 100m ahead on track as recover period in beteen sets - in this my example - you are acting mainly aerobic but with some intensity, that mixed with short active recover you are dojng what i consider a DENSE workout. That density you don´t get you you do the same workout 10X400m for 66sec but with 1minute rest, and to work in 63-54 seconds with short reps as 30seconds as the guy that suggests 16X400m for 57-60sec with 30sec intervals that are just for runners with sub 13:30, or for 800m-1500m runners.

This doesn´t mean that when you are training speed, that 14:10 runner he may do 400m sets faster than 68.4, but with long recover. That´s what Carlos Lopes did when in between races (thus competitive season) he did 10-15X400m for 62-64sec, but he needed 1 min to 1min 10 passive recover.

He did so many races - and remember that a race that´s an hard training session as well, and so fast tempo/Lt managemnt workouts that in his training modulation he need to do that 400m in speed - thus passive and long recover at sea level). So, close to competitions you may turn on workouts not dense and not too much fast than race pace also but long recover periods, If you read some Renato´s schedules as well as i did said it - that close to the races he uses longer intervals. You need t be fresh and ready for the competition. Interval training (uncomplete recover) don´t works close to races.

So, i´m not against short reps - particularly if you are training in the sea level -short reps are good. I´m against short intervals but in paces too much faster than race pace and i´m also against short intervals closer to competitions (long or short sets), as i´m against short reps in long sets. All that creats too much anaerobic training and lactic acid that´s undesired for a runner. But if you want to accumulate lactic acid then uses that workouts distant than the competitions

But that you undertand all the logic of my reps and Intervals you would need that i will tell you a little more about my reps philosophy. All training are whole. The formats are secondary.

To determine what we are talking about that´s not enough to say X number of sets for X set distance for X interval pause. WE need to relate that with runner PB´s and runner talent and runner capacity and runner shape condition, and runner characteristics, But i guess that when you say 16X400m for 57sec with 30sec intervals i guess you are not talking about El Gerrouj or Kenisa Bekele or Bob Kennedy or Dieter Baumann - you are quoting a workout for a average american runner. And that seems to me a nonsense for that american averege runner.

Antonio thank you for explanation of recovery between sets.

My understnading was that you dont want to much lactate acid buildup close to competion.Thus you want longer recovery at this period.

If you have time.In America I do not see much information

on the use of HILL TRAINING,other than older Lydiard explanation .Peter Coe says it is very important and was used much by Sebatian, however there is not much explanation on its usage with the five pace method.

Could you explain how it would be used by an American collegiate who has run cross country in the fall September -November.Is training for spring track season (no emphasis on indoor season)This American runner wants to run fast times In late April at Mt.SAC Invite. and Stanford Invite in early May.

Also wants to run well at Conferance Championships Early June.

Please explain for the: 800/1500m runner

3000m/5000m runner.

How do you use in the winter Pre-Competative (Dec.-march.)

Competative season(April-May)

thanks je

2.50 is 68 sec per 400m Antonio.

Thanks. When i made figures my memory, i made that mistakes.

72sec that´s 15min pace.

So let´s see if my turn my example with accuarte numbers.

14:10 that´s 2:50 pace and 68by 400m.

Then 400m in 100% less than 2.5% that´s 68sec-1.7sec=66.3sec and 400m in 100% less than 5% that´s 68sec-3.4sec=64.6sec, so if that 14:10 runner example are yet able to do long reps or the coach want to use short reps format he may do that in a 64.6 to 66.3 pace with short and active recover.

When that same runner are ready to use long reps, then the short reps turn on to a faster pace - as speed training and the runner trains in intensity in that short reps but with longer interval pauses, but with the concern of not go too much faster than Race Pace. It depends , but let´s say 100%-7.5%= that´s 63.9sec.

NO CONTINUE WORKOUTS

Things turn on to complexity when that´s training modulation, but the NOT continue workouts variables that deals with:

NOT CONTINUE WORKOUTS:

1/ total distance workout

2/number of sets

3/each set distance (or duration)

4/average pace (of each set)

5/interval time duration (and/or interval pace)

6/the type of that interval: passive, active and what you do in between the sets

That´s in that combination that you need to analyse what´s are your workout.

Ther´s another discrimination according the workout interval model that we may analyse.

TYPE OF WORKOUT ACCORDING THE INTERVAL FORMAT mainly:

1/interval training – sets with incomplete interval recover.

2/repetitions – sets with quite complete intervals.

3/alternate training or intermittent training (also called not accurately fartlek) – sets in a continuous run with a alternate faster and a slow pace.

4/tempo or tests of control – tempo runs in quite close to maximum pace for each set distance with quite complete recover.

The combination of item two (2/number of sets) of item three (3/each set distance (or duration)) and item four 5/interval time duration (and/or interval pace) and according what are the workout target creates another discrimination:

EXTENSIVE and INTENSIVE WORKOUTS

1/extensive workouts – that your target that´s to run under an average pace BUT longer total distance or the total duration (thus more sets under the same pace). That are more relate with long sets but you may train short sets in that extensive class. Or/and shorter recover.

2/intensive workouts – that your target that´s to run under a pace that´s faster, so you may train less sets and eventually less distance sets but a faster average pace, so consequently the interval pause that need to be longer.

Thanks Antonio,

I have seen the flaws you are talking about with the hard interval sets not improving or even decreasing fitness last year and was suprized. I'm not that old so I have a lot to learn ... Also the injury potential when way up as we ran into some foot problems with EVERYONE !!! My questions are as follows:

1) Do you feel that racing at a high frequency is critical to high performance (say 3 times per month). You gave an example of 2-3/ 3000m races but is the time frame important? (i.e. should these be in the weeks before the key race or eight to twelve weeks out?)

2) also it seems like you feel touching race pace is important say 15 x 400 (95 to 105%) of goal pace with long rest (1:00 to 1:10) so lactate accumulation is low in January or as the workout between weekend races in the late season. How do you modify these workouts to addapt as finess improvess and you are able to complete 6 - 7 x 1000 at pace (or do you just race?).

Lately we have done things like 4 x (2 x 600, 1 x 200) on grass at about 10K effort with equal distance jog rest. Overall pace for the runs are (6:30 to 6:40) for women. From this one of my girls has equaled her 5K CC PR alone running a workout. Our focus now is 5K CC race at the end of November or a 5 mile road race in the same time frame for various athletes.

I admit that I need to go do my homework now and reread the articals you have on marius bakken's site. This would probably answer some of my questions. Thank you for your time and help. I am reliving last season and how suprized I was when HARD Intervals stagnated fitness even with a huge aerobic base. The interval sessions were impressive but races were always poor. I don't want to see that again!!

PurdueGrad

PurdueGrad

As far as i undrestand youir "Hard Intervals" that´s what i´ve seen people doing all the time with the misundrestnding that "if i do faster sets i will get my PB´s". But faster/hard workouts are the "old training method" - that of train in paces that are no more connection and no more transfer for the Race Pace. In my opinion the solution for the pace improvement is to train more and more quite close under and over and IN race pace intensities. Thata are pace support for Race pace in real runs, i guess. The 3 other variables in intervals workouts 1/the interval duration and which interval type (active, passive) and 2/the set distance and also 3/the total distance (that´s the number by each single set distance) that are the key for improvement - at least at sea level - and not faster paces all the time. that´s in that issue (workouts closer to the race pace) that i think (amomg other aspects) that van Aaken is a modern coach.

Well, i admit that you have more doubts following my workout logic than convinctions, but if you let me follow my explanation of my workouts and my workout philosophy in te next posts that i will intend to do in this thread, then i hope that you will see my logic clear. Once again most of the question you ask me i think that in the end you will have the answer just by reading me. but just a few tips or clues about your questions

1/It depends of each individual and what the target distance event. Aerobic events you may be out of competition for longer periods and the first run aproach you reach your shape potential. But if you are training for events that it includes anaerobic training thus usualy it takes some runs as shape up for the peak race or peak period. For my experience under several cases and those of top portuguese runners - Mamede that´s the best example - he did 13 times sub 28:00 and 42 times sub 13:30 he uses to do 1500m or 3000m in the open season. But i admit that each individual is a unique case. But i´m talking about not frequent competitions all year round, but the period before the peak period.

2/ this have to do with periodisation - what and when to do.

In the end of my explanation - that i hope to complete - you will understand my use of workouts.

I´m talking about a compete cycle periodisation that have a start and improvement and an end. A compplete periodisation cycle, so i may not have a opinion about those who are competing in a few weeks. One more point. WE are atking about 5000m track runs - at least i´m. That´s diffrent than a 5cc or a 5mile road run. Despite i use the same logic, the worjkouts are different.

But let me add one detail. In beginners, i use often workouts that start and ends with the same set distance Ex: 10X400m or 5X3X400m and not 5X(400m+300m) or 5X400m + 5X300m. In beginners I use that last one formats -those of different set distances with experienced runners, not beginners or with begginners but if the target that´s speed - max.pace. Why? Because i´ve learn people learm more in equal stimulus (same set distance) than sevral diferent stimulus in different paces. But if you are training pace - do the same set distance in each single workout, but if you are training speed - as don´t matter you run in different pace results so you may work in a format like that. Ex: 400m+300m+200m+100m.

"The interval sessions were impressive but races were always poor." - I´ve seen that too much. This means 2 things, that the training is not adequate - you aren´t training the training needs for the distance - or/and that with a proper training you will improve. But change wrong habits that takes time.

Thank you Antonio for your patience with me :) I agree in time I will understand your logic. My main priority is 5000m on the track. Lets say June is the focus. In January would something like this be useful or is it still too much load for such an early time frame?

Monday: 8 - 12 miles (12 to 20 k)(may be doubles)

Tuesday: 15K with 8 - 20 x 50m hill sprints with 3:00 jog rest or 100m strides w/ 300 jog rest

Wednesday: 10 miles (16K)5 to 8 miles (8 - 12k) at AEROBIC THRESHOLD

Thursday: Recovery regeneration (off or similar to monday)

Friday: similar to monday

Saturday: Women 10 x 300m at goal 5K pace with 200 jog (1:20 - 1:30 active rest) or Men 10 x 400 with same rest format.

Sunday: 1:20 to 1:40

With a rest week at 3/4 the volume every 3rd week.

I don't feel that I understand how to generate a full peak for an athlete over a 6 to 8 month period in your system of training (or any system ???). I have ideas but I am trying to break the idea of aerobic base with strides and aerobic threshold runs only. This seems to make for a strong athlete that can run 3000m of a 5000m race...

Outstanding...keep it up

"I am trying to break the idea of aerobic base with strides and aerobic threshold runs only. This seems to make for a strong athlete that can run 3000m of a 5000m race..."

I would have thought the exact opposite. That a strong aerobic base on its own created an athlete who could go round again but could not get any faster. You sure you're doing it right?

Purdue Grad,

How is Jack Warner doing coaching distance over at Purdue?

Jack Warner seems to be doing very well. Their number one runner (a friend of mine) is back to the form of her freshman year again (after a bunch of stress fractures). The girls really like him. To be fair his focus is totaly on the womens team this year. The guys team is not that great but only has one full scholorship to give for all of distance running (CC and track) so you can't extpect the world with relativly no money to work with.

As far as the 3000m of a 5000m comment I thought the same thing, at first, it seems backwards. If the pace is slower than 5000m pace (i.e. running the equivolent pace for 10,000m) then the ability to hold on improves drematicaly. For example one of my girls had to go flat out to run under 16:50. All 5Ks on the track were in the 16:40's but ran 33:51 for 10,000m (about 16:20 equiv)in the rain!

That is why I started this thread for 5000m because it is very tough event to run and train for. The lactate levels are much higher than the 10000 but the duration is much longer than the 1500m (obvius). I came to the conclusion that just because you can run great tempo and AeT runs means nothing to the 5000m, but does to the 10k or 1/2 marathon. The 5k pace was ez for 1600m then as lactate acumulated as it does in the 5000 the body couldn't handle it for another 3400m only about 1400m.

We did many (about 2 per week)fast interval sessions that accumlated Lactate but I think they were too fast and not specific to the 5000m distance (too long maybe too?). She could run 1500m alone on the track in 4:36 with even pace at this time too.

When reading the LT thread I have seen one common thing between Antonio and Renado. The use of Specific Endurance. Renato calls it exactly that and Antonio has called it Specific Lactate Threshold. I don't know how to incorperate this type of training yet but that is why I started the thread. I am convinced that AeT (think Marathon pace) and Threshold runs don't help the 5000m as much as I used to think for track. Road racing may be a different story as I have had better success with that.

Hope I answered your question with regard to 3000m of 5000m. Now if you could tell me how to fix the problem it would be great !!!

Purdue Grad