Another bad analogy from Letsrun, Is Coburn's steeplechase AR soft?

Coburn is likely to take the record down even further this year, in Stockholm or Zurich. But right now her time is about one second slower than the fastest time in the world this year. It ain't shabby.

seriously dude, did anyone say that? Show me where. Until then, quit putting words in peoples' mouths to try to prove a point because you don't have one.

student of the sport wrote:

get used to it. wrote:

or a dominating athlete.

Or maybe the breaks allowed him some recovery time which helped is race later on. Just things an average person would think about. I think I read at times he has stayed at aid stations until the next people showed up so he would have someone to run with.

So he's like the best athlete ever? Are ultra runners gods among mortal men and women? Please enlighten us.

alanson wrote:Our old record holder JBS is the exception that proves the rule since she's within a tenth of second of taking down a 1500 record that's not considered "soft" by many people (except Ventolin)

i'm being realistic

mary's 2nd quickest 1500 :

a SOLO 3'57.24 off a suicidal 61.94 !!!

with fast, even pace to bell avec lapine that was easily a 3'55 probably more like a 3'54

the record jenny shouda been chasing is 3'54/3'55

Big Guy

Ignore this if you want, but I get from own pure mathematics only tables :

7'20.46 = 1'41.56 = 3'27.43 = 12'39.00 = 26'14.57

( You can get them here :

go to

"Ventolin worksheet"

)

When Komen set it in '96, it was stronger than then 800/5k/10k WRs ( still stronger than current 10k WR ) & fractionally weaker than Morceli's 1500m WR

The 800/1500/5k WRs have progressed since then, making Komen's time "weak" by comparison - passage of time has eroded it's relative worth

I get

8'15.66

It's not

8'06.06 = 1'53.72 = 3'50.23 = 13'55.00 = 28'46.57

It's lot weaker than Kratoch's 800WR & fractionally stronger than Qu's 1500WR

14'44.50 = 8'35.76

Molly's time is long way outside 8'30 equivalent

jrm wrote:The main problem with...

Is that you Jonas ?

If so, great to see you post here !

Can you do me a favour ?

If you are still member of International Stats Mafia, can you pass that

"Ventolin worksheet"

link/tables to them

Specifically, I was trying to contact Quercetani as that ole boy is pushing 100 & hasn't long left until meeting his deity

It woud be nice for a guy who's been obsessed with stats for nearly a century to finally see the possible "Holy Grail"

( Tables based only on maths

( Apart from 200 = 2*100 & consideration of 200i to 400 outdoor as 200 to 400 leap adjustment

The 400 - 10k is solely maths based ))

I can't find Quercetani's e-mail, so kindly pass tables on

Thank You

Really? no problem getting over the barrier - see photo.

Men often skip stepping on the barrier on the first and last lap.

Women are shorter? How much shorter are they than the men? Six inches? If a woman is six inches shorter than a man does than mean that her hips are six inches lower... or about three inches lower? Because it's the hips that determine the need for elevation, not the head. The reality is the women and men steeplechasers have probably have less than and inch an a half difference in hip height, and you can see it in the way they hurdle. The women don't have to hurdle at all, they just step over the barriers. Colburn is a stiff lead legger, a no-no in Hurdling 101. The first thing you learn in hurdling is to "lead with the knee", not the foot. Colburn can get away with stiff-legging because there is no reason for her not to, the barriers are so low.

The best middle distance runners don't run the steeplechase? You mean like Jenny Barrenger?

I think you haven't thought this one through yet. I'll give you some time.

[/quote]

Because it's the hips that determine the need for elevation, not the head. The reality is the women and men steeplechasers have probably have less than and inch an a half difference in hip height, and you can see it in the way they hurdle.

There was no scientific basis for IAAF to lower the barriers to 30" It was a dumb move. Everyone can see how easy it is for women to step over those barriers.

I'm surprised elite women didn't complain themselves about the adjustment. It might make sense for high school girls or 50+ women but not for Elite women. The steeplchase is meant to be a grueling tough event and it is not for everyone including other elites who don't wish to risk injury.

I agree with those calling the record soft... it is because the event itself has been compromised to begin with.

8:30/14:40 those times are at least as good as a 9 flat in the women's steeple.

Just my opinion but if Simpson was as serious about the steeple as she is with the 1500 she could easily break 9 minutes. Many other women could as well. Just a different talent level.

Sort of how Dragila was setting records and everyone was so excited, certainly she was an amazing athlete, but we all knew the heights weren't really there yet.

Women are just now approaching 17' where the records are comparable to men's records. In ten years or so the women's Highs school record will equal Dragila's PR.

Women's steeple does have a way to go yet.

This. Should we shorten the track for these women, too?

Captain Oblivious wrote:

There are short and tall men and women doing the steeple. The barriers should be the same height.

Your welcome.

ventolin^3 wrote:

alanson wrote:Our old record holder JBS is the exception that proves the rule since she's within a tenth of second of taking down a 1500 record that's not considered "soft" by many people (except Ventolin)

i'm being realistic

mary's 2nd quickest 1500 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq-odGn8Zi0

a SOLO 3'57.24 off a suicidal 61.94 !!!

with fast, even pace to bell avec lapine that was easily a 3'55 probably more like a 3'54

the record jenny shouda been chasing is 3'54/3'55

They should have credited me on that article, as I had made the comparison between Lagat/Jager and Rowbury/Coburn already, as well as another claim in that article.

jrm wrote:

The main problem with the analogy is that your math is wrong.

8:58 is 8.5% slower than 8:16.

But 8:16 is 7.8% faster than 8:58. It all depends which event you choose as your starting point.

Since the steeple for women is newer and times in that event will always be slower than in the open 3K, I would take the 3K as the reference value, as you did.

"The reality is the women and men steeplechasers have probably have less than and inch an a half difference in hip height, and you can see it in the way they hurdle."

I think you need to think that through.

calculon wrote:

"The reality is the women and men steeplechasers have probably have less than and inch an a half difference in hip height, and you can see it in the way they hurdle."

I think you need to think that through.

The whole issue of different heights/barriers/leg lengths is STUPID.

For many years we have had the 100m HH for women and the 110m HH for men, and the 400m IH for both, all set at whatever heights they sit at (don't know, don't care).

Now we have a men's 3000m SC, same for women. And the barriers are at different heights.

LIVE WITH IT! You are sound like a bunch of frigging fifth-graders arguing over whether Batman could beat up Spiderman.

The woman's steeple has only been contested for about 10 years. In 1972 Sid Sink had the American record in 8:26 when the AR for the flat 3000 was 7:45. 41 seconds slower.

The steeplechase in 1972 had been an event for men for 50 years and was 41 seconds slower than the AR for the flat 3000. Today at 8:06 it is 36 seconds slower than Bob Kennedy and Sydney Maree's 7:30. I'm not including the Kenyan Olympic silver medalist.

Coburn's 9:11.4 is 46 seconds slower than the AR for the flat 3000.

Yes its still a soft record however its also only 13 seconds from the world record.

Close to the same differential the American men were at in the event in 1972.

You have to look at it with that perspective.

steepled some wrote:

On the other hand, the women get less distance pushing off a 30" barrier at the water pit, which puts them deeper in the pit every water jump.

People always forget this fact. Thanks for noting it.

Also, jumping over stuff is way easier if you're running fast. Since women are slower, it makes sense for the barriers to be lower.

The women's sprint hurdles are criminally low, but that is for another thread.

George Atlas wrote:

The woman's steeple has only been contested for about 10 years. In 1972 Sid Sink had the American record in 8:26 when the AR for the flat 3000 was 7:45. 41 seconds slower.

The steeplechase in 1972 had been an event for men for 50 years and was 41 seconds slower than the AR for the flat 3000. Today at 8:06 it is 36 seconds slower than Bob Kennedy and Sydney Maree's 7:30. I'm not including the Kenyan Olympic silver medalist.

Coburn's 9:11.4 is 46 seconds slower than the AR for the flat 3000.

Yes its still a soft record however its also only 13 seconds from the world record.

Close to the same differential the American men were at in the event in 1972.

You have to look at it with that perspective.

George, here is another perspective.

In 1972 Kip Keino won the Oly steeple his 1st year in the event, plus stepping on each & every hurdle.

Bring Back the 880 wrote:

steepled some wrote:

On the other hand, the women get less distance pushing off a 30" barrier at the water pit, which puts them deeper in the pit every water jump.

People always forget this fact. Thanks for noting it.

Also, jumping over stuff is way easier if you're running fast. Since women are slower, it makes sense for the barriers to be lower.

The women's sprint hurdles are criminally low, but that is for another thread.

Actually this is better, the lower waterjump forces them into pushing horizontally resulting in a smoother trajectory.

M 110 h 42"

W 100 h 33"

M 400 h 36"

W 400 h 30"

M 3000 sc 36"

W 3000 sc 30"

I go over the reasons why horizontal velocity is the most important factor involved in determining hurdle height when I have a chance.

14:43 guy wrote:

The whole issue of different heights/barriers/leg lengths is STUPID.

For many years we have had the 100m HH for women and the 110m HH for men, and the 400m IH for both, all set at whatever heights they sit at (don't know, don't care).

Now we have a men's 3000m SC, same for women. And the barriers are at different heights.

LIVE WITH IT! You are sound like a bunch of frigging fifth-graders arguing over whether Batman could beat up Spiderman.

Agreed. All the hurdle events are different heights for women, as they should be.