WHAT HAPPENED IN THE CIF GIRLS 1600 FINAL????

Cush: All due respect to one of our most seasoned and accomplished posters, but I HAVE raced and coached a lot (longer than you actually, just a lot slower), and I have seen that tactics like going out at close to WR for your classification when you have never run within 20 seconds of said pace for the entire distance, and doing so in direct sun at 100 degrees WILL produce serious negative consequences by the end. In this case it was the stumbling fall of a competitor who shadowed her, so it is an indirect result, but I don't see it as random at all. Obviously, your opinion is different, but maybe you are vested in ways that I am not.

In any case, Robinson ran the smartest race and emerged the victor, that is the lesson to take away.

Certainly Anna and Bethan proved themselves to be two of the toughest racers in the country, but I hate seeing potential squandered with basic errors of tactics.

(It looks like Efraimson is running the 800 at Brooks PR. I would have liked to see her against Knights in the two mile instead. Bethan may still run in the 9:40's leading the whole thing if she can calm down the first few laps.)

socal cush wrote:

that's my story and i'm sticking to it...

Yes, your story is what is called "paralysis of analysis."

Many posters were there and have their biased theories, but I watched it - and the replay - at home on a 84" screen. Robinson was in third and clipped second. Second took out first as second went down. Whether you consider it a violation or incidental contact, it was supremely clear that Robinson took out the leaders. I don't think you can fault first for slowing down. It appeared that second and third were moving in/out of the lane to be in the best position. At some point their wires crossed and #2 got the worst of it (until she then took out #1, who was completely innocent of any infraction)

PS, I don't have a horse in this race. I don't know any of these girls.

One thing everyone needs to remember is that Maxwell always goes out very hard (see Stanford Invitational and CCS finals). She already knows that she can still run ~4:42 going out insanely fast and it probably was a reasonable tactic for her to take forcing the other girls to run a pace they might not be accustomed to. So, sure, it probably was asking for negative consequences for her at the end, but the goal was to produce even more negative consequences for her opponents.

The on-field officials did not even have a discussion about the fall: no harm, no foul, no clipping infraction. Robinson won. That is the real end result.

wasnt there wrote:

Many posters were there and have their biased theories, but I watched it - and the replay - at home on a 84" screen. Robinson was in third and clipped second. Second took out first as second went down. Whether you consider it a violation or incidental contact, it was supremely clear that Robinson took out the leaders. I don't think you can fault first for slowing down. It appeared that second and third were moving in/out of the lane to be in the best position. At some point their wires crossed and #2 got the worst of it (until she then took out #1, who was completely innocent of any infraction)

PS, I don't have a horse in this race. I don't know any of these girls.

Your theory is biased as well as I watched it on my 90" screen and never saw any contact between Robinson and Collins. Only Collins and Maxwell.

The on Filed official was close by. NO FLAG, NO FOUL. Robinson went wide to attempt to pass Collins, NO CONTACT, Collins tried to quickly respond and tripped up taking down Maxwell when she fell.

It's too bad we weren't able to see what would have been a great last 50 meters.

At the CCS finals .25 seconds separated Anna Maxwell and Sarah Robinson. It looked like it was going to be another exciting finish.

How exactly did Robinson trip Collins while being off to the side and ahead of her?

Cushsucks wrote:

The on Filed official was close by. NO FLAG, NO FOUL. Robinson went wide t̶o̶ ̶a̶t̶t̶e̶m̶p̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶a̶s̶s̶ and passed Collins, NO CONTACT, Collins tried to quickly respond and tripped up taking down Maxwell when she fell.

Right, that's exactly what happened.

Anyone know where Maxwell is going to college?

Washington

A Duck wrote:

Anyone know where Maxwell is going to college?

Final Buzzer wrote:

Cush: All due respect to one of our most seasoned and accomplished posters, but I HAVE raced and coached a lot (longer than you actually, just a lot slower), and I have seen that tactics like going out at close to WR for your classification when you have never run within 20 seconds of said pace for the entire distance, and doing so in direct sun at 100 degrees WILL produce serious negative consequences by the end. In this case it was the stumbling fall of a competitor who shadowed her, so it is an indirect result, but I don't see it as random at all. Obviously, your opinion is different, but maybe you are vested in ways that I am not.

thanks for the respectful response, but i will have to respectfully disagree again. we're probably splitting hairs on one point--your comment about "sowing seeds of defeat" still seems overly dramatic and patently untrue given the fact that she's won so many races this way. is it what i would do in a race? no way (at least not on purpose). does it hurt her chances of breaking 4:40? probably, but i think she still would have won this race had the fall not occurred, and a fast pace like this usually DECREASES the likelihood of falls. yes, those are opinions, and for the record i have nothing vested in either athlete. i still believe maxwell is the superior athlete, but we'll never know with certainty who would have won, and robinson indeed did run a smart tactical--and ultimately fast!--race.

but i still find your logic odd: you're saying an athlete takes a competitor out too hard, and is to blame when said competitor gets tired and stumbles and clips the aforementioned athlete. if that is indeed a logical pattern, roughly half of the boys 1600 races i saw this year would have ended in falls, as would virtually every 800 race...

i also think the heat in any race under 10-12 minutes, the heat is mostly a non-factor for elite athletes. that's sort of an opinion, borne out of experience, but i suspect there is some research that may weigh in on this topic...

The reason for my hunch is/was this: I was in a regional Master's 1500m championship years ago, where the temps were an unseasonal upper 90's (usually upper 70's here), and a heat-acclimated guy who was visiting from SoCal, used to the heat, took things out about five seconds faster in the first lap than I had anticipated. He won easily enough, and I staggered in at second place, my head spinning, white spots everywhere, after I had stumbled on the rail with 300 to go. I wanted to vomit, but there was nothing there.

Watching that girl's race, I could literally feel the loss of focus and coordination that Maxwell and Collins were experiencing. When Collins went down, to was no surprise to me whatsoever. When Maxwell was slow to get up, and jogged in, this was no surprise either. Those conditions were brutal.

Maybe I was too definitive about her tactics, due to an empathetic experience, and to my bias as a negative-split miler, but even though I was unfamiliar with Maxwell's modus operandi, I had a sense of dread and inevitability about a poor outcome for her. As it turned out, it was the disorientation of her competitor that provided the blow, but my sense also was that Anna was really losing her grip, relative to Robinson.

Girl's track/cross country: The drama is always assured!

Thanks for your input, Christian. You are inspired and fervent, symptomatic of all great runners!

Sounds like typical female drama with the falling. SFH used to do that sort of thing (among others).

So you're suggesting Collins fell without any contact? You don't need to invoke Occam's Razor to suggest that is 10,000X less likely than Collins being lightly clipped by Robinson behind her. There was zig-zagging within the lane between Collins and Robinson, in part due to Maxwell's slowing down (which, I'll add, isn't blame). Collins and Robinson crossed tips and wham. Track-face.

I heard that Collins nicked the rail which caused her to stumble. Anyone have video footage or photos that can provide a clue as to what happened?

wasnt there wrote:

it was supremely clear that Robinson took out the leaders.

It's impressive that she could do that from lane 2:

wasnt there wrote:

It's impressive that she could do that from lane 2:

http://ca.milesplit.com/photos/files/7092535#.U5XSB3JdVuM

The head on view of this photo is more conclusive than the side view of the video. Hard to see how there could have been incidental contact between Collins and Robinson.

You heard wrong Collins was no where near the rail. She stumbled when she tried to respond to Robinson coming up on her outside. That said are there NO video's of the Calif State meet?