LRC Male Stars "Clean" or "Dirty" Doping Poll Results

Takes guts wrote:

rojo is dirty and we all know it

Including that name on the list would have been interesting. How many would have voted from emotion rather than reason?

7soiusidud wrote:

You're comparing almost certainly doped Africans (with joke drug testing) with often fake ages to Caucasian American real junior. Apples to Oranges. Compared to all European ancestry "prodigies," Rupp's 4:01 to 13:37 range in highschool is unmatched, only Lindgren was close to it.

Yeah and now he's kicking the asses of the very same almost certainly doped Africans with joke drug testing. So what's that say to you? I can't compare him to guys who went nowhere on the world scene, I can only compare him to the guys he's competing against, most of whom were faster than him at age 22.

You think Tariku's age is fake? Haile's? Maybe Geb is actually 45 years old? Not likely...

I'm a physicist, so here's some data: the list of guys with slightly slower 10K PRs than Rupp, including their 10K PR, and their PRs at age 22 (according to IAAF.org):

All-time 10K:

1. Kenenisa Bekele

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15. Galen Rupp: 10k PR: 26:44. 22 yo PRs: 27:33, 13:30

16. Mo Farah: 10k PR: 26:46.57 22 yo PRs: 13:30 (no 10k listed)

17. Imane Merga: 10k PR: 26:48. 22 yo PR: 12:53, 26:48 (october birthday)

18. Josephat Bett Kipkoech: 10k PR: 26:48.99. 22 yo PR: 12:57, 26:48.

19. Eliud Kipchoge: 10k PR: 26:49.02 22 yo PR: 12:46 (age 20)

20. Moses Ndiema Masai: 10k PR: 26:49.20 22 yo PR: 12:50, 26:49

21. Sammy Kipketer: 10k PR: 26:49.02 22 yo PR: 12:52, 26:49

22. Paul Kipngetich Tanui: 10k PR: 26:49.41 22 yo PR: 13:04, 26:50 (December birthday)

23. Moses Mosop: 10k PR: 26:49.55 22 yo PR: 12:54, 26:49

24. Assefa Mezgebu: 10k PR: 26:49.90 22 yo PR: 12:53, (27:19)

25. Richard Limo: 10k PR: 26:50.20. 22 yo PR: 12:56, 26:50

So at age 22, every single guy (except Farah) between Rupp (#15) and Richard Limo (#25) on the all-time 10K list blows Rupp out of the water. Remarkably consistent, most of them had run close to their 10K PR by age 22 and all of them were well under 13 in the 5K. Every single one, except Mo Farah, whose times at age 22 were similar to Rupp's.

Even at age 24, Rupp's PRs were 13:07 and 27:10; he dropped 22 seconds on his 10K PR at age 25.

You mentioned Rupp's highschool times, and I tried but found it too hard to compare to these other guys because many of them weren't really running at that age. The 22 yo times form a much more solid dataset.

I'm not going to speculate further. My point is that Rupp and Farah did NOT follow a typical progression for runners of their ability.

Excuse me, Paul Tanui was not under 13 for the 5k, but he had ran 26:50 at age 21 so he clearly had the ability. I apologize for the formatting as well (although frankly the Brojos should be apologizing for their site, not me :p ).

the fail in your logic is considering all runners the same no matter their background, country, coach, workouts, goals, etc.

it is clear that Salazar did not push rupp to his maximum at age 22 b/c salazar felt a slower path would yield better results down the road. I don't thnk rupp ran 100 mpw in college.

THe east africans you list probably went to maximum training earlier because that is what everyone elee they knew were doing. And probably some were poor and were willing to trade $10 down the road for $5 now.

So Rupp probably COULD have run 26:xx in college...but salazar kept his training load lower.

Point is that Rupp was one of the best hs runners the US has ever seen - therefore it is not surprising that he is one of the best pro runners the US has ever seen. His progression has been completely believable.

The poll is clearly a popularity contest. For example are you seriously telling me that people think Rupp is dirty but Solinksky is clean? A guy built like a linebacker blows Rupp out of the water in his first 10K and runs sub 27 minutes and has run faster than Rupp over 5K. He also had massive jumps in 5k performance at an older age than other top 5k guys and ran slower than Rupp in the younger age groups.

I think it is highly suspect that Tegenkamp and Solkinskys performances have dropped off so dramatically in recent times (even accounting for injury). It is almost as if they were taking something and they stopped as they either felt guilty or were worried about being caught (When younger it would be worth taking the risk to make a career from the sport). They realised they could not cut it on the track so moved to the roads where their performances are pretty weak but good enough to make some money. The same could be said for Webb although he was crazy talented when younger so that is a harder argument to make or Wariner in the 400m. The same could be said for Ryan Hall who, as has been well documented, is / was taking thyroid hormone.

My point is that you could make a good argument for anyone on the list being dirty if you wanted to enough. Rupp and Farah get unfairly singled out when there are many others who are just as suspect but are not as successful so don't get the same attention.

The same applies the other way round. You could make a good argument that everyone is clean. Farah did not start taking training seriously until 2006 when he moved in with the Kenyans and cut his 5K time from 13:30 to 13:09 in one season. He was however very talented when younger and ran 1:48 for 800m at age 20 when not taking running seriously. I doubt you can find many 5 -10k guys who can run that fast at their peak never mind when 20 and messing around. He had to stop focusing on shorter distances as much after that as he had a hamstring problem and has run few 800m races since. He improved to 12:57 and 3:33 before moving to Al Sal and never did any lifting or even had a really well planned training schedule incorporating sprint work etc before this. This explains why he is so quick as with speed of 1:48 when messing about it is not surprising with a well planned schedule with focus on finishing speed he can run so quick.

All you can do is enjoying watching these guys perform and assume they are clean unless proven otherwise. If you go around thinking everyone is dirty you have a very syincal veiw on life and how can you watch the sport? We just have to hope the testing keeps improving and cheats get caught.

My second point is that the poll did not define what dirty is. Thyroid hormone for example is not a banned substance. If the pole asked do you think these people are taking substances on the banned list and made clear what is not banned you probably would get different results.

More people think Rupp dopes than Farah? This should put an end to the myth that runners are suspected of doping based on their race.

Let me guess.

White Americans clean, black Americans, Africans, and Carribean Islanders dirty.

This is letsrun after all

Mooner wrote:

Let me guess.

White Americans clean, black Americans, Africans, and Carribean Islanders dirty.

This is letsrun after all

more accurately: distance runners clean, sprinters dirty.

Not sure how anyone can argue against that general theme.

Obnoxious, move on Let's Run. Stick with proof not suspicions and rumors.

cuban bluegrass wrote:

Mooner wrote:

Let me guess.

White Americans clean, black Americans, Africans, and Carribean Islanders dirty.

This is letsrun after all

more accurately: distance runners clean, sprinters dirty.

Not sure how anyone can argue against that general theme.

How do you explain Rupp's numbers on the poll?

had to go there wrote:

cuban bluegrass wrote:

more accurately: distance runners clean, sprinters dirty.

Not sure how anyone can argue against that general theme.

How do you explain Rupp's numbers on the poll?

there are exceptions to every rule. for some reason people love to hate on Rupp and anyone associated with the NOP. Lord knows why.

But it isn't a racial thing - of the five active athletes judged most clean, 2 are black (Meb and Lomong)

There is an irrational dislike of Rupp on these boards. That's why he breaks the color barrier in the poll. For proof consider that there must have been many who voted Rupp dirty and Mo clean. How the heck can that be?

That said, they're both dirty. I blame Rupp less than Farah, though. Salazar has controlled Rupp's training, heck, his life, since he was a child. Mo chose to join the group after he was already an established athlete. It's hard to believe he didn't know Salazar's reputation.

presumably the information has been passed onto wada and usada?

bans to follow..

I still believe that everyone has a certain amount of intense training in them. Once that limit is reached peak performance is reached, and the body then begins to break down. Some seem that they can go on forever, while others the decline is much greater. I think Rupp has benefited from Salazar coaching him for so long and controling his mileage build up.

[quote]Link wrote:

There is an irrational dislike of Rupp on these boards. That's why he breaks the color barrier in the poll. For proof consider that there must have been many who voted Rupp dirty and Mo clean. How the heck can that be?

That said, they're both dirty. I blame Rupp less than Farah, though. Salazar has controlled Rupp's training, heck, his life, since he was a child. Mo chose to join the group after he was already an established athlete. It's hard to believe he didn't know Salazar's reputation.[/quote

Terrible poll. First, what is "dirty"? I bet for most who voted Rupp and Farah dirty, it is simply having what I don't have in terms of advantages, meaning money, talent, coach, facilities and gimmicks, and the fame and awards.

While most won't admit it, that is all we know they have. Sure they dabble in supplements and Rupp has used thyroid meds which are debatable. But guess what, all the above are available to almost every other top western athlete and many others who live or train in western countries. That does NOT mean they are taking banned substances.

Big difference. To think that Gouchers, Ritz, Teg, Solinsky, Flanagan, etc. don't have all the same tools as Rupp and Farah is a joke. Again, this does not mean they take banned substances, it means they are Olympic level athletes using all of the legal resources available to be the best they can be.

My only thought on supplements is are they safe for you, even while legal. That is a personal choice.

As was stated earlier, this whole "poll" is rubbish, and does nothing but continue the nonstop stream of b.s. and unsubstantiated accusations by teenage clowns and stupid adults.

Setting aside all the methodological problems with this, what possible value do the "results" serve? That people can say who they want to believe are doping? Oh boy, that's valuable!

If you say you want to support the sport of running and racing brojos, this is a really stupid stunt that undermines any such statement of support.

DC Wonk wrote:

As was stated earlier, this whole "poll" is rubbish, and does nothing but continue the nonstop stream of b.s. and unsubstantiated accusations by teenage clowns and stupid adults.

Setting aside all the methodological problems with this, what possible value do the "results" serve? That people can say who they want to believe are doping? Oh boy, that's valuable!

If you say you want to support the sport of running and racing brojos, this is a really stupid stunt that undermines any such statement of support.

I disagree.

I think almost every american distance runner is clean, so I'm not a cynic here.

I think the poll serves a valuable purpose - helping to put USATF's feet to the fire.

Here we are, track fans, and clearly as a group we have little faith in USADA, USATF, WADA to catch and punish dopers.

(we may be wrong - maybe we should have faith - but clearly we don't - half think rupp, farah and lagat are dirty, and 87% think the OG champ is dirty)

So this is one more tool to kick USATF's rear into taking anti doping seriously. The sport on the pro side is failing - and I believe on reason for that is the widespread belief

that we aren't seeing honest competition.

Giving LaDoper the jesse owens award, tyson gay a 1 year sentence, hiring mitchell and cherry, the drummond problem...USATF needs to feel some heat and this is one match.

Farah is so dirty its unbelievable. Lagat could not PR in a 1500m or run a 1500m that fast so late in his career, and we know Daddy is doing what ever it takes to remain forever young...

Lets be serious either these guys are micro dosing and live in a manner where they get notice before the testing occurs; or their "gimmicks" + contrived diagnosis of hypothyroidism and other problems are giving them access to supplements and tools that have cumulative effect of doping.

I'd love it if USADA let the brojos do the testing for these guys...

Have Rojo drop in from the sky by helicopter while these guys are training in the mountains, I guarantee you'd have a few positive tests then... these guys wouldn't be able to get "lost" on their cool down, pound a half gallon of water, and get a few extra hours in to get the goods out of the system... Drop in, work out is on pause, pee in the cup... kthanksbye

I don't need to read the list, doping is the standard. It has been the standard for DECADES. Find a list of US sprinters that medaled and count the dopers. It's everywhere.

Ask yourselves this: if you are a high school senior and had to shave some time to get a scholarship to your dream school, or you were a D1 guy looking to win big and make The Olympics and you were sooo close, would you use drugs?

if the answer is no, you do not have the competitive fire to excel.

If the answer is yes then you have the mindset of an elite athlete.

These men and women WILL DO ANYTHING to achieve their goals.