useless boys at running stores

in most of canada running room is the only place around to get running shoes (not counting big box guys).

next time you come out west you will see a different story.

the greater vancouver area alone has over 10 running specialty stores not including running room.

romper room, as we call it, sucks out here, in fact one of the guys who works at the running room nearest to my store actually comes to our store to buy his shoes. no shit.

and about shoe reviews. take them all with a grain of salt. yes they are good in giving some guidance but really dont give the whole picture of how a shoe is going to feel on your foot.

The cut out totally weakens the heel. Then the angle of cut allows for the exterior side of the heel to become super-compressed thus all but the extreme pronator ride to the outside.

Chances are if someone has ITBS, they're wearing a Saucony.

it's not about working for me or not. I love and tout the NB 900 as the greatest "trainer" in years but I can't wear it -- it doesn't fit me.

The sliced heel is stupid -- the outside compresses at a faster rate than the rest of the shoe and all but the most extreme of pronators ride to the outside. I see people that come in and they're standing in their Omni's on the outside of the feet.

The difference for most, however, is that in many cases the people wearing these shoes are donig far too little running to really notice anything.

shoe reviews are total BS. Every shoe is great? How are they realistically going to criticize a shoe and say that it is poorly built when that shoe companies ad is on the opposing page?

I have seen very little in magazines suggesting problems with modern shoes, especially in the context of serious athletes.

Did anyone read RunningTimes flats review? What a bunch of garbage. How is the Tiger Paw just a 5k shoe? I realize that most won't run 1000s of miles in it like I do but only 5k -- yet the T3 racer is a 10k shoe?

Road Runner Sports is exactly the same way. I stopped by there a few times to check it out while I was getting therapy on my leg is SD -- it was ridiculous. I watched one sales clerk hand a customer everything from the Pearl Izumi Out (a firm Skylon for those unfamilar with the brand) to the Beast without any analysis of foot structure or technique. B/c they're comission, often they'll take a glance at your foot (which is bullshit because it all depends on how they meet the ground) and bring out the three most expensive shoes they can get and say, "One of these is going to be your shoe." A friend of mine went there and walked out with the Kantara and it tore his foot up because although his foot was flat to the ground he hardly pronated at all -- what's more he's almost all midfoot/forefoot so it wouldn't even matter if he had more subtalar joint movement. Useless.

you are right to say that they never would say that a shoe sucked bc it is the shoe companies that pay the bills. however, it is fine to read the shoe reviews to see what new shoes are coming out. all i meant was to not base your next shoe on what runners world or running times say. nothing can or ever will replace the advice from an independant running store.

by the way, i dont think that rt meant that the tiger paw was only for 5km and the t3 only for 10 k. i think that is just how they were comparing them. pegasus rc is the most durable--> marathon, tiger paw is one of the lightest-->5km.

yes still not a very good way to describe them nonetheless.

Even then, the idea that "more shoe = more durability" is false, in my opinion. If you're running in an RC150 or an H Street, very quickly you reach a point where it can't really compress anymore.

People will ask, "Is the Kayano more durable than the 2090?" and I will say, "Not necessarily. It has more Gel and more R&D in it, but that doesn't translate into performance."

I've had guys bring back the Kayano after a few runs and say, "You know, it's just not enough cushion for me." So I say, "ok..." and I bring out a few shoes and he goes home with the DS-Trainer and says, "Yeah, this feels so much better."

My smashed up Tiger Paws feel like marshmellows to me. They've got 1000 miles on each of them, but they feel better now than when I first got them. Some will tell me, "No you need more shoe than that," and I will say, "How can you say that when you don't know anything about my legs or feet? Would you say that about Abebe Bikila's feet?"

I don't see how more shoe = more miles when I see guys pour on thousands of miles on shoes like the H Street, RC-150 and Cubato, while 2090 runners come to exchange their shoes every 400 miles. It seems that the minimalist approach encourages efficiency while the "trainer" approach encourages dependency on shoes.

you are right on.

efficient runners will get more life out of lighter shoes than inefficient runners will get out of 2090s and the like.

but, for an inefficient heel striker (most of the readers of runners world) they will wear out racing flats faster.

and as for the nb 900. where do you get that it is one of the best trainers in years.

do you mean it is one of the best light weight, slightly posted shoes on the market when compared to the zoom elite, ds trainer, grid swerve etc.

the shoe fit and felt like a piece of shit to me, not much better than the cardboard box it came in.

granted some people like it but not that many.

I have been wearing Saucony Stabils for a while now. I get 500 miles out of each shoe and the tread is worn right down the middle. I have never had any type of IT band problems or any pain whatsoever on the outside of my knee in years (I run 80-90/wk). I do wear orthotics which I feel also helps.

For the price, durability and feel I have not found a better shoe for me.

The NB 900:

It's light

It's low to the ground relative to trainers (10/20)

It's thin

It's not too soft

It's platform isn't too narrow

It's got a decent post for those who may need it

It's built sturdy enough that someone can go right out of a regular shoe and into this (which is esentially a racer -- only 10gm heavier than the DS-Racer) without too many problems.

There's a kid from out here in Temecula who's a pretty talented runner -- placed top 20 at Stanford last week. He has constantly been injured throughout HS. He was in the Kayano with orthodics and just struggled with injury. Could not run consistently if his life depended on it.

He got into the NB 900 -- no orthodics or anything else -- and BAM! -- he's healthy and consistently training. He poured on hundreds of miles on those 900s over the summer without difficulty. And it's not as if he's the most "neutral" of runners. He has very mobile joints, so the extreme inclination of the Kayano allowed to easily tip inward and place untold pressures on his knees. Now, in the lower platform, he doesn't have the high center of gravity or pitch in the heel from which to rotate.

I'm not saying the 900 is the best because I like it -- it doesn't fit me; I can't wear it. I'm saying it's the beset because I'll bring it out for just about anyone that isn't obese and more than not they look good in it (even the more inclined pronators) and if they look good in it 7/10 times they take it and love it. i can't tell you how many people I've had that have had shin splints or other lower leg issues that have left with the 900 and their problems have vanished. Less pitch in the heel means less pressure on the lower legs and knees. Less height means a lower center of gravity and mroe stability. A thinner midsole means that the foot can work more and become stronger.

I cannot keep it on shelves.

Again, I didn't say it would happen to EVERYONE -- but when I see lots of people that are coming back with their Sauconys (especially Omnis) and are walking on the outsides of their feet...

I just think the shoes are poorly built. The cut out they make in the heel to show the GRID weakens the structure of the shoe and that sliced heel makes it real easy to compress that sucker.

This is funny... He hijacks this thread to talk about his minimalist shoe theory and yet he is getting therapy on his leg.

I used to tell my high school runners to only buy shoes at specialty retailers, even though they wanted to go to Footlocker or Just For Feet. I always said that clerks at those places know how to run a cash register and what the new Allen Iverson shoe is, but would have no idea if I asked them to recommend a slightly medially posted shoe.

I'm sure some guy who works at Footlocker will ream me for that, but I think it's a valid rule 99% of the time.

Go to Super Jock 'n Jill in Seattle. Ask for Chet. He'll tell you everything you want to know about any shoes and more. But the Asics 2090 is a cheaper shoe than the Kayano ($90 vs $140) and very similar. Or check out their web site.

www.superjocknjill.com

I think you'd be just as good off taking a dart with you, throw it at the wall of shoes and buy whatever one it hits. Honestly. I've been to so many running stores where the "highly trained, well paid staff with excellent biomechanical skills" have put me in the wrong shoe, it's sad.

For years these jokers kept putting me into motion control or stability shoes, and for years I got injured. Then I finally ended up at PT that knew what was what, and said to buy a neutral cushioned shoe, and BAM! End of the injury cycle.

Just for kicks, I went into a well known running store with lots of highly trained staff, tried on the Adidas Supernova Cushion (the same shoe I've been in, injury-free for a year now) and asked them if it was the right shoe for me. They watched me run on a treadmill and said it was the absolutely wrong shoe for me and tried to get me into a Nike shoe with all kinds of motion control crap on it. Thanks, but no thanks...most of these people haven't a clue what they are talking about. Good luck.

Trackhead, I also have an old pair of Tiger Paws that probably have a 1000 miles on them. They feel better than any of my newer shoes when I run in them. They have just collapsed/worn into a configuration that seems to be just right for my gait. I'll probably keep running in them until they disintegrate.

Here in SE Michigan, we're blessed to have 3 Hanson's Running Shops. The people they hire are, for the most part, people in their OTP group. The one or two that aren't are still very knowledgeable about the product and the sport.

you're an idiot

how is a hamstring tear from a slip in the mud related to footwear? especially considering that, when the injury was incurred and later initally flared up, I was running in the 2080s. It wasn't until after i was fulyl healed until I started the minimalist route.

old guy II,

yeah, I'm going to keep my Tiger Paws around until I burst through the other side.