Keino vs. Ryun, 1500 Meters, 1968 Olympics

Interesting, but there are other quotes and stories about Keino you should look into. Btw, you are likely full of excrement regarding your claim about being in Mexico City in '68 for the games.

He likely dropped out of the 10k because he couldn't keep up. The story about the bladder infection came out MUCH later. Keino ALWAYS had incredible excuses for losing races, ranging from heroic battles with disease to death threats. This has been commented on by Jipcho and a few others, but ignored as it isn't very PC to bring up.

When Keino couldn't hang on in a big race against Liquori, he hung it up, then later claimed he let Liquori win because Liquori was in front of his home crowd. Just one of a truckload of examples. Right there with his claim, after finishing third in a Commonwealth Games race, that he had received death threats. Jipcho says that the threats never occured. Keino was simply beaten.

But he's a legend, and he's African, so that makes him immune from the scrutiny a European, American, Japanese, etc. would have to endure.

In that race, the Germans worked together but they did not win, In Sydney 2000, the Moroccans worked together and did not win Ngeny won. You have to understand the Kenyan mind, when it comes to dealing with white people, and I have been to that country, Kenyans can and will regularly say what you want to hear, or, anything that will make you go away happy, but in reality they do not mean it. You have to learn the code. The joke is on us. Jipcho said that to just please us (Americans) knowing the fragile egos of the mid distance runners/fan boys of current days.

I had mono in 1962. I was in bed for over 4 weeks and unable to work or train. It was a tough and long road back. I had lapses in strength now and then for a couple of years after that.

I forgot to say in my previous posts that Ryun eased up in his last 300 meters.

I WAS at the 1968 Olympics. The only final I missed was part of the long jump. We were late and we heard the cheer as we ran up the stadium steps. Beaman was kneeling in the middle of the track as we entered the stadium. And our seats were low and at the long jump pit.

After that day's events, Peter Mundle and I went to the Olympic Village to see his Collage Coach and spent some time with Coach Bill Bowerman. They were showing that jump on a large screen over and over. That is the only time that I met with Coach Bowerman.

I have been to 7 Olympics and 5 World Championships as a spectator beginning with the Tokyo 1964 Olympics. I have posted about them on this message board (and on the Legends Lounge of Tracktalk.net) for ten years

Incidentally, I use my Real name.

Shawn H wrote:

Watch the video again. Maybe you'll get it the second time around. Pay attention to both the narrator and Jipcho, who planned the tactics with Keino and carried them out. Or should we ignore a guy who actually ran the race and knows, and instead listen to you? None too bright, are you?

Nothing illegal about that.

I don't understand the problem here. Ryun let his opposition get away. That happens all the time. When Jipcho went out fast and Keino followed, a smart racer would have kept within striking distance.

Team tactics are meaningless. Just get up there and pretend you are one of the team. They are not actually doing anything to make you run slower.

I find it hard to believe that yet again we are trying to come to terms and excuses for Ryun's loss at the '68 games 46 years later. As has already been mentioned, this HAS been discussed on these boards. To put it bluntly, the fastest runner at that distance in that race crossed the line first. Every race has a winner - albeit some get caught for PEDs - and in this particular race it was Keino. Why you ask? He ran faster than all of the other runners in the race. No amount of conversions, excuses to do with altitude, injuries, illnesses, etc, hold up here. An Olympic final is the final and you have to be on your best to win. I don't think Ryun felt at any point that winning would not be possible due to the altitude - I'm sure he went into the race with a winning mindset as did Keino. Every runner had to face the same circumstances, and if Ryun was too banged up to give it his all or felt that altitude would be his demise, then why would he run? You can't blame media hype on a loss, as pressure and hype/excitement are part of the game for a professional athlete. You have to learn to let it motivate you, not hold you back.

Also, why would anyone question Atkins as to whether or not he is telling the truth? The man has a long history with the sport and some great stories and insights.

Kenio and Ryun are both greats and will be remembered. Let's just let history carry on their legacy, not get caught up in the woulda, coulda, shoulda talk.

Ryun is a known ANTI-Semite.

What happened to all the posts in this thread by .. well .. you know?

Seyta wrote:If you scroll through the boards, you'll probably see HUNDREDS of posts from Ventolin arguing that Ryun is basically the greatest miler ever to be born, that he had the ability to run 3'24", that he had the most potential, etc.

There have also been dozens of instances in which people have started threads about prominent milers/1500m runners, Kiprop, El Guerrouj, Morceli, Coe, etc. and 5-6 posts in, Ventolin completely derails it into an argument about why Ryun was better than all of them.

The point is, Ventolin is irrationally overzealous in asserting Ryun's status as the GOAT in his event to the point that it's irritating. If something has managed to convince Ventolin that Ryun didn't have a prayer in the race, it's akin to a miracle.

err...

i have made it clear, that imo :

for '66, Ryun was probably in 3'27 shape

in '67 he had made a huge improvement thru maturity & actually incorporating more science & did altitude work seriously

that year i reckon he was in 3'24 shape

keino that year likely 3'28/3'29

for mexico, keino got more time off to train & kenya even had a training camp for 1st time as jomo wanted gold(s)

keino probably in 3'26/3'27 shape that meet

Ryun had been screwed for '68 by mono & someone mentioned a nagging chronic hamstring injury

his form looked to have dropped to maybe 3'30

if he'd run against anyone other than keino that day, he wouda murdered the field, as 3'30 was lot better than the germans who were probably good for 3'32/3'33 but he had the misfortune to run into a guy who was probably in 3s+ better shape than him at sea-level

ventolin^3 wrote:

... but he had the misfortune to run into a guy who was probably in 3s+ better shape than him at sea-level

…. but who only managed to beat him by less than 3 seconds at altitude; Weird, for a guy who had a clear altitude advantage.

it was only Ryun's fault he was near dead-fuucking last until nearly 1/2 way - far too conservative

the vid doesn't show Ryun at bell, but it can be estimated he ran close to 56s for last lap, meaning he had left it too late to chase keino & still had lot left in tank

if he'd have moved up earlier the gap wouda ben more like 1 - 2s at finish

at sea-level that day in perfectly paced race imo it wouda been 3'26/3'27 v 3'30 in keino's favor

Keino kicked Ryun's butt.

If the race had been at sea level and Ryun had not had mono the outcome would likely have been different.

But there was no way Ryun could have beaten Keino that day in Mexico City, team tactics or not

Keino was never going to run under 3:30. EVER.

He raced a lot and never got close to that mark anywhere.

His strength was that he could deliver his best at altitude as well.

Keino had pretty modest talent relative to the modern era of Kenyans and those guys can barely dip under 3:30 now.

SMJO wrote:

Keino was never going to run under 3:30. EVER.

He raced a lot and never got close to that mark anywhere.

His strength was that he could deliver his best at altitude as well.

Keino had pretty modest talent relative to the modern era of Kenyans and those guys can barely dip under 3:30 now.

I agree. Keino was not one of the best Kenyan runners ever, but he was really good for his time, and he did win the Olympics. That can never be taken away from him. The point of this thread, as I said, was just to inform some people of what really happened and to inspire debate. Thanks for everyone's good comments, even Ventolin, who seems like a really smart, knowledeable guy, although unnecessarily abrasive at times.

SMJO wrote:

Keino was never going to run under 3:30. EVER.

He raced a lot and never got close to that mark anywhere.

His strength was that he could deliver his best at altitude as well.

Keino had pretty modest talent relative to the modern era of Kenyans and those guys can barely dip under 3:30 now.

+ 1

This is the most accurate statement on this thread. Keino wouldn't have lived with the likes of Lagat and Kiprop. All this talk of 3:26 is so ridiculous it's actually funny.

Ventolin a smart guy? Really?

Anyone who claims Ryun (or anyone else ever, come to think of it) was capable of 1.39 and 3:24 in 1967 is on the other end of the spectrum to being smart.

You're (intentionally ?) missing the point. You said Keino was 3+ secs faster at sea level .. which would have to make him even further ahead at altitude .. if you compound that with Ryun's poor tactics in that race, Keino should've beaten him by even further again .. yet the difference was actually LESS than what you claimed it shoulda been at sea level.Claiming the difference in that race, at altitude, was likely 1-2s is completely contradictory to claiming that Keino was likely 3 plus seconds better shape at sea level.There is no way in the world Keino was as fast as Kiprop over 1500m .. at any altitude.

ventolin^3 wrote:

it was only Ryun's fault he was near dead-fuucking last until nearly 1/2 way - far too conservative

the vid doesn't show Ryun at bell, but it can be estimated he ran close to 56s for last lap, meaning he had left it too late to chase keino & still had lot left in tank

if he'd have moved up earlier the gap wouda ben more like 1 - 2s at finish

at sea-level that day in perfectly paced race imo it wouda been 3'26/3'27 v 3'30 in keino's favor

Welsh Wizard wrote:

Ventolin a smart guy? Really?

Anyone who claims Ryun (or anyone else ever, come to think of it) was capable of 1.39 and 3:24 in 1967 is on the other end of the spectrum to being smart.

Yes, that is probably stretching it too far, for sure. But it's easy to make those claims when first, we'll never know and nobody can prove otherwise; and second, Ryun was truly great for his time. I've always believed that if time travel were possible, Elliott, Ryun, Coe, Rono, and others would be right at the top today against anyone. And if these legends were growing up in today's world and training with a coach like Alberto Salazar and taking advantage of every modern development and innovation, they would still be world champions.

That MAY be true .. but there's also no question the world of athletics is far more competitive today, with a much larger talent pool to draw from, meaning top athletes from years gone by may well not be the cream of today's crop.

Further, and more importantly, the idea that guys from 50 years ago were actually running times comparable and faster than guys today simply by changing track surfaces and shoes is ridiculous.