In response to Frank Shorters Comment about marathoning

Billy was not a track guy and didn't do a lot of specialized speed work on the track. He surged within runs and raced a lot. And ran a lot. Shorter was an extremely talented and hard-working guy who figured things out on his own. Now, runners submit to coaches in the corporate context of training groups. Bill and Frank took the hard rode. They wouldn't have debated sub-4. They would have gone running and then killed on race day. Youngsters today whine but don't suffer.

The marathoners who can break 4 in the mile do so after training for the marathon after an extended period of time. After years of marathons, they realize they can run low 13s for 5k and sub 4 for a mile because of all the strength and aerobic fitness they have

OK. I would bet that many fast Japanese marathoners cannot break 4:00 for the mile.

They all have speed. You need 4 minute mile capability in

order to hit 4:40 to 4:55 in blocks of training.

Coolsaet did a workout of 5 times a mile @ 4:25 before his

last marathon. You can't hit the workout times without the

sub 4 mile speed, and if you don't hit the training paces,

you don't run 2:06 to 2:11.

It's all correlated.

What's Hall running right now? Workout blocks of 4:50 pace

@ 9000 feet. And he lived much of his life at altitude.

I think that's more important for the next natural marathoner. The sub 4 mile speed is a given. (quote)

this is a good point, but I think having the aerobic equivalent ability to run sub 4 is more important than having the actual leg speed

HRE wrote:

OK. I would bet that many fast Japanese marathoners cannot break 4:00 for the mile.

Your fast is not competitive fast.

Curious___George wrote:

“America needs to have someone come along like Alberto (Salazar), like Bill (Rodgers), maybe like me, who is a pure marathoner in a way.

if a person like this came along...what do you think the signs would be? if they are "born to run the marathon" , would they be producing lightning quick times on the track? something tells me if that person is out there, they are going to be undiscovered for a long time because they wont exactly be breaking 4 for the mile

thoughts?

That person has come along, more than once. There was Tony Sandoval, but becoming a doctor was more important to him than anything. Maybe Dick Beardsley. And Ryan Hall.

What I think Shorter means by a "pure marathoner" is someone like him, or Rodgers -- someone who can float. It's the quality that Lydiard saw in Barry Magee. It is a quality distinct from track speed.

HRE wrote:

OK. I would bet that many fast Japanese marathoners cannot break 4:00 for the mile.

HRE, you have me pondering that thought so I looked here

at the sub-4 list and here

for the Japanese records. Exactly 1 Japanese runner has gone under the 4 minute barrier. I do accept that they may not have many attempts and looked at the 1,500 record and found 3:34 from 2004.

I am a fan of Seko, Nakayama, (Wakiihuri) and currently Kawauchi. I think the Japanese mindset is one of determination and not one of speed. You are spot-on.

I count at least 3 Japanese under four.

Ishii, Yamamoto, Kobayashi, Shibata.

Busted. I failed.

fred wrote:

They all have speed. You need 4 minute mile capability in

order to hit 4:40 to 4:55 in blocks of training.

I'd agree with this. Nowadays, to win a major marathon you have to be running around 2:05-2:06 - it would seem that being able to maintain a pace like that would be equal to being able to run a 4-min mile, or 27:00ish for a 10k.

It sometimes seems that runners from the past don't realize the type of talent found in the current pool of world-class marathoners.

SMJO wrote:

HRE wrote:

OK. I would bet that many fast Japanese marathoners cannot break 4:00 for the mile.

Your fast is not competitive fast.

It's still plenty fast.

Obviously you need a reasonable amount of speed to run well under 2:10 for a marathon but you can't really draw a line. Marathoner A has a best mile of 4:00.1 and Marathoner B has a best of 3:59.9. Assuming they both ran the mile seriously, is that .2 second difference going to mean that B can run under 2:05 and A cannot? What if the difference is 4:01/3:59 or 3:58/4:02? Sure, at some point your mile is too slow to run a world class marathon but it differs from runner to runner.

So, basically, because you don't like his comment, you are going to demean his running? Yet, it is precisely his point that some people are not great at mile and 2M, but are best at marathon, and of course 10000m times are a good indication of that though the fastest ever American born marathoner never ran anything close to comparable at 10k or below. And Shorter is far beyond criticism as a runner, having won gold in 1972, starting the running boom, and then silver in 1976, losing only to a known doper.

To win a fast Marathon today you need closer to 3:50 mile speed.

Quite a few people are still a bit lost in the past when it comes to fast.

SMJO wrote:

To win a fast Marathon today you need closer to 3:50 mile speed.

Quite a few people are still a bit lost in the past when it comes to fast.

lol no

Renato Canova made a post not too long ago about wilson kiprop's training and estimating his mile ability to be close to 4 minutes flat when in peak marathon shape

this is the world record holder

If he trained for the mile? Way closer to 3:50.

These guys can't even really afford to dull their speed with Marathon training now.

Sub four any day.

if he trained for it he would certainly be faster but there is no way he could bust out a 3'50 mile in marathon mode

Frank was talking about body type and running style. Long legs, light frame and smooth strides. For many reasons, the US system does a poor job of discovering marathon talent. High school is all about 1600/3200. That distance is as far from the marathon as you can get. It is also a distance that bigger/bulkier runners can have some success in high school. Distance running on the track in high school tends to get a lot of the guys who were too small for football or basketball, but had good speed and endurance.

In college, only a few runners on each team get to compete on the track at 5k and 10k. No one runs marathons or half marathons. The top 5k/10k guys will usually stay with that distance after college in order to have a shot at an Olympic or WC team. Why not stay on the track and try to get to the Olympics when that is all you have done in college. Plus, you will get paid more when you move up to the marathon if you have been on an Olympic or WC team than just going straight to the marathon.

Colleges and high schools should embrace road racing. Why not let high school kids who do not get a 1600/3200 sport on the team run road 10ks in the spring? Same for college runners for marathons/half marathons in the spring? Give people a chance to run longer races to find the real marathon talent?