Foot Locker champ Tessa Barrett sets new HS girls national record of 16:11.85 for 5k

Except Cain wasn't racing so to speak when she ran 15:45, it was just a hard effort to give her a second event at nationals incase she needed it. She's also obviously better this year than last year. She probably was in 8:35-8:45 shape, and could drop a 15:10 give or take this indoor season.

What College did Barrett pick? anyone thanks

Penn State

How is this a national high school record when Sisson and Cain have run 15:4x?

Mrr82 wrote:

Except Cain wasn't racing so to speak when she ran 15:45, it was just a hard effort to give her a second event at nationals incase she needed it. She's also obviously better this year than last year. She probably was in 8:35-8:45 shape, and could drop a 15:10 give or take this indoor season.

That's far fetched. What are you even basing this on? Cain has not run faster than her 1500m PR from last year has she? And it's obvious that Salazar sacrifices endurance for speed around championship time, so I'd say that just the opposite is more likely. She was in closer to 16:00 shape this indoors.

Why do you think Efraimson and Cranny are better at XC than Mary Cain?

Mary Cain beat both of them at NXN 2012 where Cain was 13 seconds faster than Efraimson and 22 seconds faster than Cranny, and that was in awful mud which is bad for Cain. Cain would have blown both away on the frozen course at this year's NXN (and Barrett if she was there).

Well, Cain and Efraimson are sort of atypical for girls in that they have both been steadily improving throughout HS. I guess Mary Cain has, too, though. But I don't think it's fair to compare them based on the 2012 NXN race.

At CO state XC, Cranny was gapped by another runner most of the race and won by .1 seconds on a kick. In 2013, she beat that same girl by 40 seconds or something. She made massive improvements. The spring of 2013 in track was also when she arrived, breaking all the CO state records. So it's clear she's made a huge jump the last year. Same with Efraimson.

I definitely don't think that they would beat Mary Cain at any distance right now, but I think they have a good shot of it when they're all three pros. I mean, Elise Cranny was still on the HS swim team in the winter. Mary Cain, meanwhile, is being coached by the richest T&F coach with the most resources in the world.

But...... wrote:

watchout wrote:

Both are probably better in XC than Cain;

Efraimson's 3k is faster than Cain's 3k, and about on par with her 2 mile.

So... since Cain ran 15:45, I'd say Efraimson and Cranny would probably be 15:50 or faster......

Why do you think Efraimson and Cranny are better at XC than Mary Cain?

Mary Cain beat both of them at NXN 2012 where Cain was 13 seconds faster than Efraimson and 22 seconds faster than Cranny, and that was in awful mud which is bad for Cain. Cain would have blown both away on the frozen course at this year's NXN (and Barrett if she was there).

Efraimson and Cranny both beat Baxter. Cain never did.

Efraimson and Cranny's races at NXN this fall was better than Cain ever did in XC.

Yes, Cain beat them at NXN in 2012, but the margin wasn't all that much, both Efraimson and Cranny improved by HUGE strides (as did Cain in track, but she didn't run XC), and the rate of improvement would suggest them at least pulling even if not (more likely) passing Cain this year, had Cain run XC.

NXN Results =

2013 - Efraimson 16:50.1, Cranny 16:53.8, Baxter 16:57.8

2012 - Baxter 19:17, Cain 19:21, Efraimson 19:34, Cranny 19:43

2011 - Baxter 17:37.63, Cain 17:55.66, Efraimson 18:15.31, Cranny 18:32.28

If you look deeper at the XC results...

Baxter was better than Cain (better PR's - Mt. SAC vs. Bowdoin marks is no question, and Baxter came out on top each time at NXN), and this year Efraimson and Cranny were both better than Baxter (whether or not you think Baxter's NXN race was her best, it was still a good race for her and she couldn't have gone a whole lot faster)

Cain's times in XC weren't even much better than two other Washington athletes (Katie Knight and Amy Eloise-Neale) - Knight was only 11 seconds off at NXN 2012, and AEN was off that day, but in 2011 they both beat Cain and in 2010 they were both better than Cain. But Efraimson and Cranny were both faster than both of the 2013 Washington grads.

IF Cain had ran this year... we can't say for sure what she could have done. She probably would have been faster than last year (though maybe not, since she spent the fall messing with her running form, and year-to-year improvement in XC isn't guaranteed even if she's run a better mile this year), but would she have improved enough to finally beat Baxter? Very debatable. And would she have improved enough to go beyond that and beat Efraimson and Cranny? That's even less likely.

All we can say is that Cain's best in XC (from 2012) isn't as good as Efraimson and Cranny were in XC this fall. Ergo, Efraimson and Cranny were better in XC than Cain.

Oh, without a doubt. I was intentionally being conservative (for both Cain and Efraimson/Cranny). I think Efraimson/Cranny are both definitely faster than Sisson (15:48) and Hatton (15:50). Their 1500m times (since that was the race both focus on) from last year work out to 15:45-15:55 for 5k. And, as you saw in XC this fall, their endurance is certainly a bit better this year than last (and that's already shown up at the mile for Efraimson, who knocked off a couple seconds in the mile already even in her off season)... Cain, I thought was going to run 15:25 last year had she run it hard, so 15:10-15:15 sounds about right for this year.

video of race

http://new-balance-indoor-nationals.runnerspace.com/eprofile.php?event_id=1164&do=videos&video_id=108194

Ah, got it. It was indoors. Still, a ways off the overall high school record.

Great double win by Tessa Barrett at indoor nationals. Showed why she won Footlocker. Good race wins by Efraimson and Cranny, but let's get serious, Barrett, Efraimson and Cranny are not at Cain's level at this time nor were they during the XC season had Cain run.

Good races.. wrote:

Great double win by Tessa Barrett at indoor nationals. Showed why she won Footlocker. Good race wins by Efraimson and Cranny, but let's get serious, Barrett, Efraimson and Cranny are not at Cain's level at this time nor were they during the XC season had Cain run.

Track =/= XC.

Cain wasn't even the best XC runner in NY History (0 national titles, qualified twice with a #2 finish as a junior in 2012 and #6 as a sophomore in 2011; #3 All-Time at Bowdoin, 23 seconds behind Cuffe; #10 All-Time at VCP 5k, 40 seconds behind Schiro; #7 All-Time at VCP 4k, 8 seconds behind Seymour). Meanwhile, Efraimson and Cranny (and Baxter) are three of the best XC runners in US History (plethora of course records on major courses; Baxter with two national titles, Efraimson with the latest and Cranny runner-up this fall plus a National Jr Champ at 6k this winter).

watchout wrote:

Good races.. wrote:

Great double win by Tessa Barrett at indoor nationals. Showed why she won Footlocker. Good race wins by Efraimson and Cranny, but let's get serious, Barrett, Efraimson and Cranny are not at Cain's level at this time nor were they during the XC season had Cain run.

Track =/= XC.

Cain wasn't even the best XC runner in NY History (0 national titles, qualified twice with a #2 finish as a junior in 2012 and #6 as a sophomore in 2011; #3 All-Time at Bowdoin, 23 seconds behind Cuffe; #10 All-Time at VCP 5k, 40 seconds behind Schiro; #7 All-Time at VCP 4k, 8 seconds behind Seymour). Meanwhile, Efraimson and Cranny (and Baxter) are three of the best XC runners in US History (plethora of course records on major courses; Baxter with two national titles, Efraimson with the latest and Cranny runner-up this fall plus a National Jr Champ at 6k this winter).

So Cain beat both Efraimson and Cranny at NXN twice and never lost to them in XC? Hard to believe Efraimson and Cranny are better in XC than the under achieving Cain. Times at NXN in 2013 were faster because the ground was frozen solid.

Both Efraimson and Cranny did improve from previous years, but so did Barrett. Barrett improved a lot. Barrett broke course records in XC and won a national championship, so I guess that makes her better in XC than Cain. Barrett has won two national high school individual championships in track and Mary Cain lost in both of her tries at winning national races in high school track. But that doesn't make Barrett better in track than Cain.

Barrett has the national HS indoor record at 5000. Does Cranny hold any national records? Does Efraimson hold any national track records if you exclude the 3000 on the oversized track run in pro race? Barrett impressed me more than Efraimson and Cranny at New Balance Indoors if we're talking a distance of 5000.

One opinion wrote:

[quote]google works well wrote:

Barrett set the national record of 16:11. Baxter, Efraimson, and Cranny did not.

Baxter's 3200 meter PR is 10:06.74 which converts to about 10:10.5 for 2 miles. Barrett hit 2 miles in 10:15 (after opening in 5:03.4 for the mile) which is only 4.5 seconds off Baxter's PR and then Barrett ran another 2000 meters to set her 5K record. Baxter goes behind Barrett on my list at 5K.

Cranny's 3200 meter PR is way slower than what Barrett just did. Cranny can probably do better at 2 miles on the track, but she never has. Until she does, I see no reason to think she can beat Barrett at 5K.

Efraimson's 3000 meter record is more impressive than Barrett's 5K mark. But running an extra 2000 meters is not easy. Give credit to Barrett because she actually did something others have yet to do.

+

Cain went a combined 4-0 against Efraimson and Cranny, and 0-2 against Baxter. Cain had a lower ROI over the years where all three (Efraimson, Cranny, Cain) ran. Efraimson and Cranny are both 1-2 against Baxter, but with the win coming this year. Efraimson, Baxter, and Cranny have better XC marks than Cain.

Despite Cain beating a younger Efraimson twice, and Cranny who really just exploded in XC this fall (going from a great regional XC runner to a great national XC runner - she was already a great track runner before).

So, yes, Cain has the head-to-head record against Efraimson and Cranny. But Efraimson and Cranny both have faster times, had better rates of improvement (in XC), and both did something Cain never managed (beat Baxter).

Times at 2013 was faster because of good conditions AND because of the talent in the field. If you look closely at the results, you'd see that the 2013 course ran very similarly to the 2009 course (and not much faster than the 2008 course)... and about 10 seconds faster than the 2011 course, where there was a little mud that year. The 2008 course was somewhere in between (faster than 2011, but a little slower than 2009/2013). And by look at the results, I mean look at what kids ran there vs. elsewhere (either in cross and on the track, take your pick), because yes there were more fast times this year (because this year was by far the strongest NXN yet).

I like how you conveniently ignored the part where I showed how Cain stacked up against All-Time New York/Northeast competition. Guess since that doesn't fit into your preconceived notion that it doesn't deserve to be addressed.

As for Barrett... I never said she didn't improve. She's a fantastic runner, and like I said/agreed, in any other year she'd be the highlight. But with Cain, Efraimson, Cranny and Baxter also competing this year she's not exactly the top story.

Barrett had the best weekend. No one is disputing that. But a 16:11 5k and 10:08y - and even her FLN title this fall - doesn't push her past Cain (4:24y, 4:04m, 1:59, 2:35, 9:38y, 9:02m, 15:45), Efraimson (4:32y, 4:16m, 9:00m, NXN Champ), Cranny (4:15m, NXN Runner-up, US JR XC Champ), and Baxter (2 NXN titles, NXN#3 this fall, Mt. SAC record, Woodward record).

But, since you bring it up... how Barrett's marks stack up in XC:

17:32.7 at VCP, a little slower than Cain and not Top-10 All-Time

17:30 CR at the PA State course

Fourth fastest winning time at FLN since it moved back to Balboa (behind Cuffe, Hasay, and Goethals) in 17:16.

And how that stacks up to Efraimson, Cranny and Baxter...

Efraimson ran 17:01.1 at WA State (CR)

Efraimson ran 17:27.1 at NXN-NW (CR)

Efraimson ran 16:50.1 at NXN (CR)

(Cranny's state meet is on a brutal course at altitude, so I won't bother to compare)

Cranny ran 16:59 at NXN-SW last year (CR) - and 17:03.9 in the mud this year

Cranny ran 16:53.8 at NXN (#2 All-Time)

Baxter ran 16:00 at Mt. SAC (CR)

Baxter ran 16:40 at Woodward (CR)

Baxter ran 16:57.8 at NXN (#3 All-Time)

For Barrett's XC performances to be better than Baxter: the NXN course would have to be 20 seconds faster than FLN (which it isn't); the CA State course would have to be 50 seconds faster than the PA State course (which it isn't); Mt. SAC's 2.93m course would have to be more than 90 seconds faster than VCP's 5k course (which it isn't). The courses that are the most similar of all those are NXN and FLN, and NXN isn't more than 5-10 seconds faster - and that's being generous.

In short: Baxter's bests are better than Barrett's bests in XC.

As discussed above, Cranny's NXN time is better than Barrett's best performance. Cranny's sub-17 at NXN-SW is about on par with Barrett's marks, maybe even a slight edge for Barrett, though the 17:02.9 in the mud this year was much more impressive (the course ran about 25 seconds slower, easily).

And I'd say that all three of Efraimson's marks are better outside of Barrett's FLN race, which is better than Efraimson's state meet performance.

That's not even going into Cranny's demolishing the field at US Jr Nats (6k), her sub-17 race at altitude. Or Efraimson's race at the Dillinger invite where she beat Emma Bates (among others). I think I remember something about Cranny winning an open race during the fall as well, though I can't remember how impressive it was... I remember that there were not any potential NCAA Champions in the field, but it might have been at least on Barrett's level as well.

isisk wrote:

Mrr82 wrote:

Except Cain wasn't racing so to speak when she ran 15:45, it was just a hard effort to give her a second event at nationals incase she needed it. She's also obviously better this year than last year. She probably was in 8:35-8:45 shape, and could drop a 15:10 give or take this indoor season.

That's far fetched. What are you even basing this on? Cain has not run faster than her 1500m PR from last year has she? And it's obvious that Salazar sacrifices endurance for speed around championship time, so I'd say that just the opposite is more likely. She was in closer to 16:00 shape this indoors.

Basing it on the fact that she's in better shape than last year and she was easily sub 16 last year. 4:24.11 for the win, and 4:27 in a very slow race...she was probably ready for close to 4:20 that day.

Mrr82 wrote:

Basing it on the fact that she's in better shape than last year and she was easily sub 16 last year. 4:24.11 for the win, and 4:27 in a very slow race...she was probably ready for close to 4:20 that day.

What is wrong with you? Are you blind? Did you not read anything in my post? Especially the part about her not actually having run faster than her time last year? And then the part about how Salazar's group sacrifices endurance for speed during championships?

isisk wrote:

Mrr82 wrote:

Basing it on the fact that she's in better shape than last year and she was easily sub 16 last year. 4:24.11 for the win, and 4:27 in a very slow race...she was probably ready for close to 4:20 that day.

What is wrong with you? Are you blind? Did you not read anything in my post? Especially the part about her not actually having run faster than her time last year? And then the part about how Salazar's group sacrifices endurance for speed during championships?

Both her 1500m and mile races were during championship phases... although, given the difference between indoor championships and outdoor championships, I'd guess she was training more for endurance during this winter than she was last summer (indoors probably being a secondary "peak" for Salazar, with outdoors being the main focus).

rojo wrote:

Yvtvygvgyvgy wrote:

Any other year, Barrett would be considered a very big deal. One of the best of all time. This year she is only the third or fourth fastest HSer...

You are aware of the fact that was a new national record right?

Here is a recap of day 1 from Chris Lotsbom:

http://www.armorytrack.com/gprofile.php?do=news&act=search&mgroup_id=45586&news_id=231913&year=2014&mgroup_event_id=1164

I changed the title of this thread to reflect the national record.

I hope you all know that Barrett has a medical problem that has not allowed her to train much for the last few years. She did have to drop out of HS because of this. It looks like she has that under control.

This has been on LRC and to see her win the FLXC in 2013 and now the indoor HS record at 5k is great.