A Serious Discussion of Training in Racing Flats

Over the past year I have run around 50-90mpw exclusively using the Nike Zoom Streak LT model flats versions 1 through 3. I don't think it's a big deal to get used to if you've been running in fairly lightweight trainers with less than an inch of cushioning material though to be honest it took me about 6 months to get fully accustomed to these specific flats, and I had run in flats sparingly for about a year prior.

I find that running in flats, once I have adapted to the extra strain on the calf and foot muscles - which causes a lot of soreness at first and will limit your runs - is the difference between running an easy run/steady at 7:00 pace and doing it at

only flats wrote:

Over the past year I have run around 50-90mpw exclusively using the Nike Zoom Streak LT model flats versions 1 through 3. I don't think it's a big deal to get used to if you've been running in fairly lightweight trainers with less than an inch of cushioning material though to be honest it took me about 6 months to get fully accustomed to these specific flats, and I had run in flats sparingly for about a year prior.

I find that running in flats, once I have adapted to the extra strain on the calf and foot muscles - which causes a lot of soreness at first and will limit your runs - is the difference between running an easy run/steady at 7:00 pace and doing it at

...why was I cut off? anyway, I was going to say that flats took my easy runs from ~7 to ~6:20. Flats are made to feel fast and be fast so it's likely you'll feel like running an optimal pace on those slower days. Mileage, especially long runs, have felt a lot easier after getting used to flats. Though that might just be the training, and giant trainers would have had the same effect but I doubt it. Flats help you move toward a forefoot tending footstrike and make it easier to feel smaller inefficiencies in your form which might make you less economical or more prone to injury. As long as you're not just overstriding onto your heels with a thinner shoe, I recommend moving toward flats for the above reasons.

Do the elites do this - no

I've still got a bump on the bottom of my foot from doing the same stupid thing when I was younger

Train in trainers; easy runs, recovery runs, etc. Race and do hard wos in flats. I definitely run faster in flats. Dont think its good for every run.

Training exclusively in Rockets helped me get rid of achilles/calf issues. I would have used 0mm drop Rockets if those existed.

For racing on the road I actually have lighter flats, Piranhas. Those are just useless for anything above 1500m pace. Feet float around wildly inside.

Wearing flat outside races is all about stretching the calf/achilles. Actually I do my wet tempos in cross spikes. In part because I can't plant a foot and slip out, but the zero or negative drop keeps my calfs ready. Love Adidas cross spikes.

And taking it a step further, I found that wearing them casual (don't they look like awesome sneakers?) helped extensivve stretching. I really felt it the first time the girl took me shopping. Odd inner itch/sore. And it greatly helped my tempos and racing for soreness/overload.

My new training shoes are Saucony Virrate 0mm. Bit too wide soles (hit my own legs) and thick soles (too comfy?), but they do the trick so far. Rockets in 0mm would be better. So sturdy.

I've done some succesful heel drop hack jobs on basic trainers, but the fit is too loose for me to get good high speed performance from it. Great for easy distance runs though. Were 12mm drop, now zero. And lighter. And just as comfy. Stretch them calfs!

orionparker wrote:

I've been thinking about permanently switching to flats for everything. I've been besieged by bumps/aches/niggles over the last 6 months and I really seem to feel more comfortable in my flats than anything (NB1400, NB1600). I would be very curious to hear some input from people who have trained in flats for years to help me completely make up my mind.

I train pretty much exclusively in the NB1400. I switched to that from the Brooks PureDrift, which I did a few 60 mile weeks in before I decided I just didn't have enough under my foot. Comparatively, the 1400 is a pretty thick shoe, and I've been above 60 for 4 weeks and above 55 for 9 with no issue. I realize that's not such a large timespan

that's why you don't run rocky trails in flats nimwit.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Do the elites do this - no

I've still got a bump on the bottom of my foot from doing the same stupid thing when I was younger

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Do the elites do this - no

I've still got a bump on the bottom of my foot from doing the same stupid thing when I was younger

what "elites" do has no bearing on if it is better to do or not

hey lpd wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Do the elites do this - no

I've still got a bump on the bottom of my foot from doing the same stupid thing when I was younger

what "elites" do has no bearing on if it is better to do or not

So runners who, by definition, have their livelihoods dependent on staying injury free are ignoring training in flats full-time...why? Compared to getting chiro sessions every other day, running on zero-g treadmills, and missing lucrative races, wouldn't they switch to running in flats if it showed a benefit?

All the major shoe companies make flats and or minimal/zero drop shoes, so it can't be issues with sponsorship/promotion. I'm thinking that running in flats is a placebo. If you think it's going to help, it does. If you think running in trainers will injure you, they will. Simple as that.

At the end of the day, do what you feel is best, but running in flats isn't a magical solution.

I wear flats for nearly 100% of my training, have been doing so for around 5 months. I am female, just out of college, run ~70 mpw and do most of my training on pavement/hard surfaces.

Used to wear a combo of Kinvaras/Ride (Kinvaras for track workouts etc), but recently got a pair of NB 1400s, which I had intended to use only for shorter track workouts/road races. I ended up liking them so much that I started doing all my training in them (I phased this in slowly over a few weeks).

I've mainly seen improvement in some of the little nagging injuries that would tend to come up for me (PF, locked up feet etc), but have noticed that my achilles/calves tend to be aggravated more easily. That being said, I've always had problems in that area.

I wouldn't necessarily attribute the improvement/lack of injury due to the "minimism" of the 1400, but more that it fits my foot better. I have very narrow feet, so most conventional trainers (even if narrow width) are sloppy on my feet, which I suspect might contribute to some of my issues. Most flats tend to fit narrower, so I think this might be the main area of advantage for me.

Shoes of my youth:

Onitsuka Tiger:

G-9

TG-22

TG-23

Nike:

Nylon Cortez

Marathons

Waffles

New Balance:

322

A couple of previous responders have mentioned minimism/heel-toe drop and racing flats together. Although most racing flats feel as if they have a small heel-toe drop, not all actually do.

Here's some heel-toe drops, weights and heel heights for a selection of racing flats, "minimal" shoes & average neutral trainer (based on seller info for men's models):

Flats

NB 1400 - 10mm/181g/24mm

Saucony A6 - 4mm/147g/16mm

Nike LunarSpider - 5mm/162g/20mm

Asics Gel Hyperspeed - 6mm/159g/21mm

Adidas Adizero Adios - 10mm/230g/23mm

Minimal[\b]

NB Minimus (road) - 4mm/184g/18mm

Saucony Virrata - 0mm/190g/18mm

Altra One2 - 0mm/187g/19mm

Vibram 5finger - 0mm/170g/4mm(?)

Ol' Steady Neutral Trainer

NB 1080 - 8mm/292g/30mm

Saucony Ride - 8mm/264g/28mm

Nike Zoom Elite - 7mm/266g/25mm

Adidas Supernova Glide - 10mm/295g/25mm

Asics Gel Cumulus - 11mm/301g/31mm

As one might expect, the neutral trainers are the heaviest. You'll notice that there isn't much different between the sampled flats and training shoes in terms of heel drop (in fact, NB's training shoes mostly feature 8mm drop, which is less than their flat).

The real difference between trainers and flats is that flats are lower profile (have less of a platform shoe effect). This is due to cushioning.

The difference between flats and minimal shoes is mostly defined by heel-toe drop, though some flats have heel drops in the minimal range. On the whole, the heel offset is fairly similar, as I expect that ~16-18mm is about as thin as you can make EVA foam while ensuring some level of durability.

Bump

I'm going to commit to this and post updates on my experience so that others that are considering it have more info.

First, some background about myself:

- 5'8" 125lbs

- Previous training shoes: Pegasus & Vomero

- Neutral mechanics, midfoot strike (per video gait analysis and wear pattern on shoes)

- Long history of injuries (IT issues in particular have plagued me for the past two years)

- Training primarily for the 10,000m - pr of 31:39

I'll be starting off rotating through three shoes:

- adidas takumi sen

- adidas adizero rocket

- nike streak lt2

Will post weekly updates and answer any questions people have. I'd also appreciate any advice along the way from anyone who's tried this before (successfully or not).

Just saw this post.

About me:

Female, HS Junior

5'1" - 108 lbs

Been running for two and half years and training in New Balance WR10 minimilist road shoe from day one without injuries.

Will try to increase to 50 miles per week this winter, up from a max of 40 last summer. I have never trained in another shoe.

Maybe the elites should try it before coming to the conclusion that you (naysayer) guys have.

bump

any other long term reports on distance (marathon training) success with flats?

I never saw this thread before, think I'll weigh in. For what it's worth, I run around 30:30 nowadays and train mostly in flats.

Training with "minimal" footwear has several possible purposes, that I can think of. Let me know if you think there are others.

(1) It hopefully helps teach "better" running form automatically.

(2) It hopefully helps prevent injury as a consequence of #1.

(3) It hopefully helps improve strength and efficiency as a consequence of #1.

(4) It hopefully is better preparation for races because you are training like you race.

#4 is not a good reason in my opinion. It applies to workouts but not so much to everyday easy runs.

For #1, good running form, there are lots of ways to learn good running form. By running form I am including how you land on the ground, absorb shock, take back off, etc, as well as posture, turnover, etc. My opinion is that minimalist running is a good way to learn better form in all of these respects. Learning better form is very hard to do when running in clunkers and quite easy when running barefoot, in between with minimalist shoes. Other tools include drills, barefoot/spiked strides, and maybe trying to consciously alter your form (rarely goes well).

However, it's not well understood how #2 and #3 work. It's a matter of opinion. What might be ideal in a perfect world is to have great form, absorb your own shock etc, but then train in big cushioned shoes so you get a double benefit. Trouble is that cushioned shoes might teach you bad habits again.

I also want to give some advice on #1, that is on allowing minimalist shoes to teach you better form. I want to talk about 3 parts to how this works.

The first part is that bulky shoes simply get in the way of your foot landing as it "wants to". If you watch people running fast in spikes in slow motion, you'll see that a lot of things happen at the foot just before hitting the ground -- it flattens out so as to midfoot or forefoot strike and it rolls sideways so as to land on the outside of the foot and roll in as it absorbs shock. If you have a bulky pad on the bottom of your foot, it basically prevents these things from happening. So your foot and leg don't learn to do them as well.

The second part is that soft shoes interfere with how the body is used to absorbing shock by rebounding and being elastic in odd ways. A soft shoe does not necessarily mean there is less shock being transmitted to your body, just that the shock is transmitted differently. An example of this is the Lunaracer which is a very light shoe, but can't really be called "minimalist" because it is very soft and absorbent. Honestly I don't know whether this is good or bad or how it factors in. It's just a factor I think you should be aware of.

The third part is that hard or thick shoes interfere with "proprioception", that is, your feet feeling the ground. I think this is the most important and overlooked part of minimalist running. You want your feet to be able to feel the ground through the shoe. That way, your body will feel how you are landing and adjust as appropriate. If you cannot feel the ground, your body will not be adjusting its stride. For instance, some extreme minimalist shoes I know of have "zero drop" and light weight and blah blah blah, but very hard soles (often rubber). I think this is significantly worse than a racing flat with some drop but a thin light sole through which you can feel the ground.

I've run 100% in flats since around 2001. My calves hurt for a couple weeks and that was it. If I ran in regular trainers now it would feel truly strange.

To answer your questions:

1. That's a big claim to make. Not that I don't agree with you - I do in general, or I wouldn't have made the switch myself. However, the vast majority of elites appear to run in trainers.

2. Do not know. Maybe some of the ultra elites. They got into this stuff earlier than "regular" runners, I think.

3. I haven't looked at the link but I probably replied to it if I saw it. I have been remarkably injury-free for the 13 years I have run in flats (probably averaging 50-60 miles a week) but I currently have a nerve-damage issue in the toes of both feet that is frustrating me. No idea if it is related to wearing flats or if it would have happened anyway.

4. Good question. When I started running in flats only, there were none of the new "specialist" minimal shoes you see today. I have tried many of them and have concluded that the old-style standard racing flat is more responsive and superior. The 'new-minimal' shoes feel like comfy slippers. They don't have the snap.

5. Just do it and run easy for a couple weeks. No super hard running, which might aggravate the Achilles or calves too much. Obviously forefoot-strike. Wearing them to walk around in as well might help.

Not going to read the entire thread... Wanted to interject and demon everyone that the only rune I win 5k, 10k, and Marathon in the same Olympics trained in leather boots.