just sayin wrote:I SURE WAS
I REMEMBER VIVIDLY THE GREAT DOPED 150Os 5000s and 10000s
LESS SO THE 3000m
clearly you don't
can you describe moses's 7'28wr ??
just sayin wrote:I SURE WAS
I REMEMBER VIVIDLY THE GREAT DOPED 150Os 5000s and 10000s
LESS SO THE 3000m
clearly you don't
can you describe moses's 7'28wr ??
bekele geb guerrouj farah morcelli lagat could all do it
kiprop prob too if he trained for the distance
alamirew and kipchoge prob too
The Dingo wrote:
Let's not forget Craig Mottram, the third fastest man ever over 2 miles, running 8:03.50 while cheering and slowing down the last 30 meters. Vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esIV_UBEAawHis first mile was ~4:05 so even out his splits and have him run through the line, he likely could have done it.
No disrespect intended, as Mottram was great for a period of time, but if he could plausibly do it I'd imagine the list is longer than we think.
Mottram waved and slowed down in the final 10 meters. Not even half a second slower than what he was capable of. And he ran a damn near perfect race.
Bekele could possible do it in his prime, but he was more of a 5k 10k guy. Geb and Komen went back and forth for 2 mile world records and Komen came out on top so not likely. Guerrouj is a 1500/mile guy and his 3000 was 4 seconds slower than Komen's world record. Morcelli's 3000 was 4.5 slower than Komen's world record. I don't really know a ton about Lagat to answer. They are all obviously fast and could get close, but a sub 8 2 mile is something special.
I agree, Sub-8 is something else. I really wish we'd see guys pursue that more. It would be cool to have Salazar set up Mo and Galen for a shot at it. I think Mo might be capable.
you need to see those races ( i shouda taped them which is my mistake )
- hicham was p!ssed in his 7'23 with some sh!tty pacing in his 4'53
too slow to start with, with hicham visibly "shooing" wabbit on who then ran like a scalded cat to crazy-run to 4'53
hicham looked finished by 2k by those shenanigans - it was a miracle he hung onto 7'23 !!!
if he'd got a smooth, even 4'53, he wouda gone 7'20/7'21
- geb never got better than 4'56 in all his 3ks, 3s too slow for a good shot at 7'20
- morceli jogged to a 5'01 in his 7'25wr !!!
if he'd got something like a 4'53/4'54, he wouda gone ~ 7'21/7'22
i saw all those races on satellite, trust me, the final clockings tell an infinitesimal of the stories...
slightly off-topic, but rowlerson's book on 'roccans gives some great splits :
- tergat 13'18/13'09 with 7'50 last 3k !!!
he couda gone ~ 26'20 that day at even pace
- komen 3'29.4 with a 55.30 finish, so he had something left at the bell
- komen 7'24.9iwr with a 2'25-flat finish !!!
he couda gone 7'22i/7'23i at even-pace & that is probably in region of 7'17/7'18 outdoors !!!
- the 12'51iwr which smashed geb's 12'59iwr i always thought was a fairly even run ( missed this race )
he split 7'47.19i there = 12'58.65i pace
he ran a furious last 2k of 5'04.29 ( = 12'40 pace )
he probably couda gone close to 12'45i that day at even pace, which i have to say, without looking at iaaf tables, woud probably easily indicate a time around 12'35 at even-pace
that's still not as good as kennster who ran 12'37wr with a 57 finish, but it may be close
komen responded well to following fast pace, so he maya been capable of better than 12'35 that day
for certain, i thought i had some good lines of fit for tergat/komen, but i'll certainly have to re-examine them as definitely, i think komen's career peak maya been not late-'96 rieti, but
indoors-'98 !!!
No one. Daniel Komen is far and away the greatest deuce man of all time, and he snuck under the barrier by less than two seconds. Haile Gebrselassie tried 3 times with $1 million on the line and couldn't do it. Maybe El G would have had an outside shot, but it's unlikely.
i'll offer a prelim for komen's '98i shape :
50.5 / 1'46.4 ->
3'28.7 !
4'43.9 !
7'17.7 !!!
12'34.3 !!
i'm still of prelim belief he woudn't have beaten kennster in his 12'37wr with a 57 finish
there was obviously more uneveness in that race apart from last lap of 57, & even geb's ole 12'39wr was run with a ridiculously fast last 1k - probably also close to 12'35 at even-pace
we are still likely no wiser on who was best 5k talent of all time in a wabbited 5k to 3k mark & solo last 2k; i favor kennster, but komen's 1500/3000 offers degree of comfort with speed, meaning a 7'32/7'33 split maya felt "easier" to him than the other 2...
I think Bekele is the only other one who could have done it without changing his training. Haile did so much in has career and came so close that he was at least capable. El Gerrouj was so far under 4 minutes, and was an endurance type for a miler so I think he was too. Anyone else, I don't know. Remember, Komen didn't just run sub 8, he ran sub 7:59, twice.
Hitmonlee wrote:
I think Bekele is the only other one who could have done it without changing his training. Haile did so much in has career and came so close that he was at least capable. El Gerrouj was so far under 4 minutes, and was an endurance type for a miler so I think he was too. Anyone else, I don't know. Remember, Komen didn't just run sub 8, he ran sub 7:59, twice.
Sure, Komen did it twice. But Komen was significantly better at the 1500/mile than Geb and Bekele, and significantly better at the 5000 than El G.
2M isn't run that often - US high school mainly, and even that is now mostly 3200m. Unlees specifically going after sub- 8.00 (which has been done already so the chase for it isn't of interest other than personal), it is a non-event. Even the 3000m, which may be why it still stands, is no longer a really big deal, although there could be more opportunities if the right people wanted to run it - Mo with his 3.28 is certainly fast enough to go under 7.20 (that's the barrier). Whether he has the mindset and can get the rabbits to do the work for it is another thing. Moving up to the Marathon (London) certainly won't help this quest either. Too late for Bekele as well, he might have done it years ago (when in 12.37 shape), but it might have been a bit too short a distance for him.
El G certainly could have run under 8.00 (2M), and 7.20 in the right situations, but really didn't have the experience with longer distance (5000m as did Komen) enough until at the end of his career, and then getting the right rabbit for that distance is easier said than done - not that many guys could go 4.53 for 2k with some element of control, who would have wanted to do it for El G (Morrocan). Komen had kenyan guys to help, and was a good time-trialer anyway.
El G has his 2k record (a rarely run distance however, even less than than the 1k), which was likely beyond anyone else - not sure even Mo is fast enough for sub-4.45, although Lagat may have been when he was in 3.26 shape, although Lagat seems more of a "racer" than a time-trialer.
ventolin^3 wrote:50.5 / 1'46.4 ->
3'28.7 !
4'43.9 !
7'17.7 !!!
12'34.3 !!
the other end is that having been well whupped by hicham in '97, komen went for endurance, giving up on dreams of 1500
( hicham's 3'44.90 in oslo '97 wouda probably clued-him-up )
he may have been more an endurance monsta '98i, the line of fit which looks good is
51.0 / 1'47.1 ->
3'29.5
4'44.6 !
7'18.1 !!
12'33.7 !!
if we tend to that thinking, then, he was best 5k talent of all-time
i don't believe kennster was capable of fetching 12'33
i will have to watch that hengelo 12'37wr & see if it looks 12'33+ at even-pace...
ventolin^3 wrote:
the other end is that having been well whupped by hicham in '97, komen went for endurance, giving up on dreams of 1500
( hicham's 3'44.90 in oslo '97 wouda probably clued-him-up )
he may have been more an endurance monsta '98i, the line of fit which looks good is
51.0 / 1'47.1 ->
3'29.5
4'44.6 !
7'18.1 !!
12'33.7 !!
if we tend to that thinking, then, he was best 5k talent of all-time
i don't believe kennster was capable of fetching 12'33
i will have to watch that hengelo 12'37wr & see if it looks 12'33+ at even-pace...
For a long time Ventolin you said that Geb was the greatest 5k talent ever. Then more recently you've said that Bekele was slightly better than Geb (both times putting komen as third best). Now you say Komen is the best 5k talent ever?
Consider This wrote:
Sure, Komen did it twice. But Komen was significantly better at the 1500/mile than Geb and Bekele, and significantly better at the 5000 than El G.
What I was saying is that even if these three could have potentially run 7:59.9, Komen was still better a 2 miles. Komen could have potentially run even faster, nobody maxes out.
It's more than just how fast they were at the mile and the 5k though right? Maybe El G would have held up a lot better over 2 miles than 5k, were that the next commonly raced distance. As for Bekele, he ran so close to 4 minute miles in his 5k record that it should have been a lot easier for him to keep up with Komen over 2 miles than 1. Even Ngeny I don't think could be ruled out, if he had a longer career and moved up.
- komen 7'24.9iwr with a 2'25-flat finish !!!
he couda gone 7'22i/7'23i at even-pace & that is probably in region of 7'17/7'18 outdoors !!!
- the 12'51iwr which smashed geb's 12'59iwr i always thought was a fairly even run ( missed this race )
he split 7'47.19i there = 12'58.65i pace
he ran a furious last 2k of 5'04.29 ( = 12'40 pace )
missed watching most '98i season
( i thought none of big boyz woud turn up & just wait for outdoors )
it was my mistake
( although i saw geb's 7'26iwr kalsruhe on satellite - didn't think that was ever going to be broken !
budapest, where komen ran 7'24.9wr was not a meet televised regularly/ever - i don't think it has existed as an indoor meet for years apart from butt-end of legacy for '89 indoor champs )
the kada book splits for '98i
forces re-evaluation of komen
he clearly was in 3k/5k shape of his life
clearly best 3k runner ever & a 5'04i off a 7'47i, that's enough ammo to declare a
< < 12'35 outdoors at even pace
he can up his 5k standing from 500 - 600lb gorilla upto 650 - 750 with that...
I think it's closer to
3:25 1500
3:43 mile
7:25 3ooo
12:50 5ooo
Fair enough points; we'll have to agree to disagree.
I would argue anyone who has gone 7:26 or faster for 3k had a very good shot at sub 8:00 for 2 miles. The distance is rarely run though, and sometimes it ends up just being more about the win than time. I think Bekele and El G could for sure, probably Lagat several years ago, likely Geb and Morceli, and probably a few others.
When Mottram ran 8:03, it looked like he could have easily run 8:01 just by sprinting all the way through the end. It is possible he could have run 7:59 that day, though probably not faster.
Morceli ran 7:25 off of a 5:01 2k split I think, and then closed like hell. Even splits he was worth much better obviously, have to put him in the running for a sub8 2M in 1994-1995.