Lydiard's 28 week training

I forgot to mention that he says the first important race. Does he mean important as championship races? or races throughout the season?

You ask many questions, and the answers can go so many ways, depending on a lot of individual factors about you.

My best suggestions:

- Don't start an aerobic phase in the middle of track season. Unless track is unimportant.

- Aim to peak for the mid to end of cross-country -- that's when the "important races" usually happen. Peaking in the beginning could be disastrous come the end of the season (when a heavy racing schedule burns you out).

As for the rest, my quick summary of Lydiard is:

- "aerobic" training for endurance and stamina

- "hill" training for strength and flexibility -- helps prevent injury and prepare for "harder" workouts

- "track" training for speed

- "coordination" training: specific training for your event (also helps identify weaknesses that can be corrected)

- "freshening": tapering to be fresh for the "important" race

There is nothing magic about 28 weeks. If you only have 20 weeks, you can accomplish this by shortening some of the phases. The phase you shorten (or maybe lengthen) depends on an accurate analysis of your strengths and weakness, and also a consideration of your event.

For example, if you are in high school (and somewhat underdeveloped "aerobically"), and considering track speed isn't as important in cross-country, you could plan:

- 12 weeks of "aerobic" training

- 3 weeks of "hills"

- 3 weeks of "track" training

- "coordination" training coincides with the start of cross-country season -- your racing serves as "time trials" training, and coordination training

If you are really weak aerobically, it might even be better to do:

- 18 weeks of "aerobic" training only (include fartleks, variety of terrains, long runs, shorter faster "tempos")

- skip "hills" and "track"

- go directly to cross-country season: "practice" races and "time trials"

Lydiard isn't so much about "28 weeks" as finding a "perfect balance" between "aerobic" and "anaerobic" training, and timing your peak when it matters.

Thank you so much for the help! That really helped me out a lot! Below is my plan for getting ready for cross country season.

Lydiard 4 phases: 26.5 Weeks: Start training program for cross country on April 21st

Phase 1 : aerobic miles- 12 weeks

Phase 2: Hills, aerobic, and speed work 200- 400 meter repetitions until tired with speed and had enough. - 6 weeks

Phase 3: Sharpening- long run, 50 meter sprint with 50 meter jog, and time trial 4/5 effort. - 7 weeks

Phase 4: Tapering and freshening up- 1.5 weeks

April 21st- Start of summer: Aerobic Miles = 7 weeks

Start of summer- July 12th: Aerobic Miles and Hills- 5 weeks

July 12th- August 23rd: Aerobic miles, hills, and speed work- 6 weeks

August 23rd- October 11th: aerobic miles, 50 m sprint with 50 m jog, fartlek, tempo run, 2 mile time trial, and Saturday race- 7 weeks

October 11- October 21 : Taper and freshen up, lower intensity- 1.5 week

October 21- end of season: aerobic miles, fartlek, and race

DISTRICT RACE: OCTOBER 21ST

REGIONAL RACE: NOVEMBER 1ST

Tell me what you think of it? and Do you think I can achieve sub 16:50 5k with this? I am better at endurance than speed. I am 15. My current PR's are 11:29 for 2 miles and 18:51 for 5k and 57:55 for 14k. I will be a sophomore next year during cross country

Michael, If I could offer a suggestion on your scheduling from our experience, try this:

12 weeks-Aerobic. We'll include as many hills as we can in our runs (we don't do repeats this time of year), 1 or 2 days of up-tempo aerobic work (2.5-4.5 miles instead of Arthur's 10 milers), 1 day with 100 m strides.

4 weeks - hills 2x week, 1 'trial' (a 2.5-4 mile tempo run - fits Arthur's "3/4ths effort") - our first race would be at the end of this cycle.

4 weeks - Intervals. We go high-low. One day longer (800-1600's), one day shorter (200-400), one day of strides. We don't race weekly, so those off weekends are 3/4th's effort trials (aka tempo runs). None of this is done on the track.

4 weeks - Sharpening. I suggest staying away from the 50/50 sharpeners just yet, and use 100/100 for now (2-3k worth). A weekday trial would include a sprint (we'll use a 400 or a 200) and either a mile or an 800. An off weekend still has a 3/4 effort trial over roughly 3 miles.

2 weeks - Taper. Remember, keep an eye on your mileage up until this taper, and you can get some BIG improvements these 2 weeks.

It's more like Arthur's 5k schedules than the XC ones. To give you something else to think about, we progress our training with each year; so a soph for us would be 35-40 min on the easy days, 50-55 on the intermediate runs, and 70-75 min on their long days; a senior would be more like 50-70-90. I was heavily influenced by "Running the Lydiard Way" back in the day (and did my best racing post collegiately using this as a guide), so I have no qualms about doing 100's and up-tempo stuff in our base.

Thank you for your response. If you mind, could you go back and look at my last post. I posted what I think April until November will look for me. I need some tips or comments on how well it can really get me. I'm thinking of doing 7 weeks of aerobic running only working my way up from 45 to 48. The next 5 weeks will be 3 hill workouts and 7 aerobic workouts during the one week. I will double up on hill work out days. By the end of these 5 weeks, I want to get up to 51 miles a week. The next 6 weeks will be 3 hill workouts a week with 2 speed workouts a week and 5 aerobic workouts a week while doubling up on hill workouts. I will peak at 53-54 miles a week during these 6 weeks. The next 7 weeks will be right when school starts and I do aerobic workouts on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday. Tuesdays will be fartlek. Thursday will be 7 mile tempo. Saturday will be a race. I will double up on Tuesdays and Thursday by doing a 100 m sprint w 100 m jog and time trial. I will be doing around 51 miles a week. I will still be racing every Saturday during this time. The next 1.5 weeks, I will cut mileage down to 40 with lower intensity and freshen up.

Please give thoughts on this plan for next year. I don't know if doing 50 miles a week during the season with a 5k race every Saturday is good or not. Please give tips.

Why are you so dismissive of track as relevant? Cross is about becoming very strong while getting faster. You want the best times to come in Track season.

Let me come back and say I kind of got over exaggerated with these miles. I thought about it and I want to develop over the course of all 4 years and by doing this, it would be hard to develop. I will peak at around 53 miles a week. Most of summer will be 50. I will only be at 53 miles for 3 weeks straight before going down back to 50. During the season, I will do around 48 miles a week. Maybe 47. Not sure yet. I still have a long time on this. I will also adjust during the time that I am doing this based on how I am performing.

I know I can get really good during sophomore cross country. If I can get to 16:50 5k or less then I know I will be good during track.

Sophomore here, I broke 16:30 on a legit course, 16:00 on a course about which I'm not sure. Anyway, stop obsessing over mileage. Would you like to know my mileage from last week? I ran a total of 42 miles. Sure, maybe build a solid base; but Sophomores really don't need to run much more than 40-45. It's especially to make sure you aren't slogging through those 53 miles, or whatever you run (I haven't read every post). A lot of people beat those high mileage guys--they can handle more workouts. All throughout my base, I'm doing fartleks and tempos, then moving on to long intervals.

[quote]michaelchamp2112 wrote:

" I need some tips or comments on how well it can really get me."

I'll try to answer your ideas in order. Reading through your post, please make sure to talk to your coach about what you are thinking.

Decent milage and consistency work wonders regardless of the program, Lydiard or not. Please remember that. But as an improvement illustration, we've had several sophs. cut 3 min. from there freshman XC times (including a state qualifier for us this year, and a girl who went from a JV 9th grader to an NCAA D.1 All-American), but understand that won't happen for everyone. We all improve at different rates.

"I'm thinking of doing 7 weeks of aerobic running only working my way up from 45 to 48."

Again, more weeks would be better. Remember also, Arthur's athlete's were running hilly courses and doing 10 mile quality runs in their base. So aerobic is a relative term. Our highest volume is at the end of this phase. Traditionally, Arthur had 1 long day, and 2 intermediate days that kept mileage numbers up).

"The next 5 weeks will be 3 hill workouts and 7 aerobic workouts during the one week. I will double up on hill work out days. By the end of these 5 weeks, I want to get up to 51 miles a week."

I wouldn't go 5 weeks at your age. This could easily wear you down, and I'd warn you against it. We'll do 3-4 weeks, and that's plenty. We won't do 3 hill workouts, either. The bounds can catch up to you if you aren't careful. We'll do 2 hill days (Mon-Th), with a tempo 'trial' on Sat. Our volume is down slightly (not up), as one of the intermediate days is gone in this phase. Not a big deal, but something to remember. Err on the side of caution with this phase: you could EASILY pick up an injury with the 15 hill workouts you have planned. We stole our cycle straight out of "Running the Lydiard Way", so it's Arthur's idea - not ours.

"The next 6 weeks will be 3 hill workouts a week with 2 speed workouts a week and 5 aerobic workouts a week while doubling up on hill workouts."

Again, no need to mix hills here with speed. That's 5 quality days in a week, and could easily get you hurt. We'll use two interval days (on grass, with some hill to it), along with that tempo run or races. One of those interval days should be longer (8's, 1k's, Etc.)

"I will peak at 53-54 miles a week during these 6 weeks."

Our volume is similar to what we did in the hill phase. You have the right idea, though: don't let your volume fall off.

"The next 7 weeks will be right when school starts and I do aerobic workouts on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday. Tuesdays will be fartlek. Thursday will be 7 mile tempo. Saturday will be a race. I will double up on Tuesdays and Thursday by doing a 100 m sprint w 100 m jog and time trial. I will be doing around 51 miles a week. I will still be racing every Saturday during this time. The next 1.5 weeks, I will cut mileage down to 40 with lower intensity and freshen up."

Michael, this looks like you are adding Lydiard on top of your coach's training. That's going to be a real problem. 2-3k of 100/100 - done the way Arthur suggested - is VERY hard, and isn't something you would want to do before or after a 7 mile tempo run (trust me - my kids think 100/100 the hardest thing they do, and 50/50 is harder). Likewise with a trial and a fartlek workout in the same day. Have you discussed what you are thinking with your coach? It sounds like they may have a different plan for you...

Have you considered simply setting up your schedule to mesh with your high school coaches training? 7 weeks - plus the 1.5 taper - would match up fairly closely with the interval/sharpening/taper phases. As an option, you could crank miles in the summer, set up a 4 week hill phase just before your season, then step in line with your high school workouts - and if you pay attention to mileage, do some pretty cool things. Fartlek workouts allow you a pretty fair amount of control, and could be easily adjusted to fit a Lydiard plan.

"Please give thoughts on this plan for next year. I don't know if doing 50 miles a week during the season with a 5k race every Saturday is good or not. Please give tips."

50 a week isn't too much - maintaining some degree of your highest volume during your season is the key to peaking when it counts. Make sure to RECOVER on the aerobic days, particularly on what should be the two longer days during the season (my mistake as an young athlete was running the long days too fast).

I read your message and I went back and really thought about it and you are right. I just want to say some things first with some questions. You say that 7 week period isn't enough for aerobic base for Lydiard. The thing is that, its really 12 weeks, but the last 5 weeks will have hills involved with it. I will do aerobic running every day with hills 3 days a week in the morning. The second phase is 6 weeks hills and speed work. You are truly right about this. I can not have 5 hard days in a week. I don't know what I will do yet. I do 3 hill workouts every week throughout summer except for a couple weeks with my team. Maybe I will do a speed workout later that day of a hill workout. Do you think that is better or too much hard work? One double up and the weeks I don't do hill workouts, I do 2 speed workouts. Next, what do you suggest I do since I have school. Tuesdays are fartleks with Thursdays being 7 mile tempo runs. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday being easy aerobic running. Saturday are races with the exception of the first 2 weeks of school. Sunday are long runs. What do you suggest I do with the sharpening since I don't want too many hard workouts. Do you think the schedule I have with school is good enough for sharpening. I also need help with mile progression. Right now during track, I am peaking at 45 miles a week and slowly going down to 42. If you could do mileage progression for me for each phase I wrote above.

Thanks so much

I read that a long run and one workout of sharpening will be enough to maintain anaerobic development while racing on Saturdays and still be well. I might not take the tempo runs or something else as hard. Might just give medium effort.

Let me say that these hill workouts are not long and hard. The average is like a 5-10 minute warm up. 30 minutes with hills and 5-10 minute cool down.

New plan for cross country. Tell me what you think.

For the base phase: just easy- medium effort miles going from my track season peak mileage 45- 52 miles a week.

For the anaerobic phase: Hills 2 or 3 times a week. Aerobic running 6 times a week. Speed work will either be in the later day of hill workouts or medium effort aerobic running.

For the sharpening part of it: Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Sunday will be aerobic miles. Tuesdays will be either medium fartlek with 100/100 sprint jog or hard fartlek, Thursday will be 7 mile tempo run or 7 miles aerobic with some kind of sharpening later in the day.

For the taper phase: I will go down to 40 miles a week. I will lower the intensity to easy running on Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. That Tuesday I will do a medium effort fartlek. ~40 miles a week, nothing much. Just trying to rest up for the 2 big meets.

For the phase after taper: still ~40 miles. Basically the same. Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday will be easy aerobic. Wednesday will be easy to medium fartlek. Friday will be easy to medium 2x2 mile run with warm up.

April 21st- July 13th: Aerobic Miles- 12 weeks ~45-52 miles a week

July 14th- August 24th: Hills, speed work, and aerobic miles - 6 weeks ~52-50 miles a week

August 25th-October 13th: 50/50 or 100/100 sprint jog, fartlek, tempo run, race, aerobic miles- 7 weeks ~ 48-50 miles a week

October 14th- October 21st: Taper and freshen up with lower intensity, aerobic miles, easy fartlek, and race- 1 week ~ 40 miles a week

October 22nd- end of season: aerobic miles, easy fartlek, and race ~40 miles a week

DISTRICT RACE: OCTOBER 21ST

REGIONAL RACE: NOVEMBER 1ST

I like how into this you are. However, a few things

A) you seem to be doing this without your coach's input. It is not a good idea to be doing workouts on the side in season.

B) it is never a good idea to do a hill workout and another speed workout in one day. You will be hurt before you know it.

C) what do you mean by after taper phase. The taper ends at your biggest meet.

"Maybe I will do a speed workout later that day of a hill workout. Do you think that is better or too much hard work?"

Too much. Pick one.

"Next, what do you suggest I do since I have school. Tuesdays are fartleks with Thursdays being 7 mile tempo runs. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday being easy aerobic running."

Talk to your coaches. Their plan is fine; I know some pretty good teams that do basically the same thing for much of their season. Some longer (3-5 minute) stretches in that fartlek day would be my only advice.

"What do you suggest I do with the sharpening since I don't want too many hard workouts."

I'm guessing you mean the 100/100 sharpeners? I wouldn't use them in your situation - as you are thinking, that's too many hard workouts. There is no 'magic' in that particular workout; it's effective, but one of many you can use. You've got a fartlek day, a long tempo day, and a race. At 15-16 years old, that's PLENTY. If you are going to add something to your coach's plan, keep it easy and aerobic.

"Do you think the schedule I have with school is good enough for sharpening."

Sure. Fitness is a great thing. Throwing too much intensity at a runner your age is a great way to destroy fitness, leaving you stale or hurt.

"I also need help with mile progression. Right now during track, I am peaking at 45 miles a week and slowly going down to 42. If you could do mileage progression for me for each phase I wrote above."

My advice is to keep an eye on your daily mileage more than your weekly numbers. The different between 45 and 42 a week to your body is less than you think. Don't be a slave to the total. Normally run 10 on your long day? Keep it at 10 in season. Run 6 on the easy days? Keep it there. Decent warmups and warm downs for your races. Tapers are VERY individual, with kids racing well from no taper all the way out to 4 weeks.

Thanks so much[/quote]

A) With my team we do Monday, Wednesday, and Friday aerobic miles. Tuesdays are fartleks and Thursdays are tempo runs. I will only add a little bit after school on my own. Like a 100/100 workout on the day of a fartlek. I will do a long run on Sunday with my Saturday race.

B)Ok I will take that into account. First of all, my hill workouts are not as hard as Lydiard had done. My hill workouts rarely go over 30 minutes. Whenever we have 2 hill workouts then I will do 2 speed workouts that week. If we have 3 hill workouts then I will do 1 speed workout. If we have 1 or no hill workouts then I will do 2 speed workouts. All other days will be aerobic running.

C) Well it is basically a taper since it is reduced mileage. I am starting my taper on October 14th with my 2 biggest races on October 21 and November 1st. My taper will be from October 14th until November 1st unless I qualify for state, then it will last a week longer. Just a quick question, how much does the taper really help?

Thanks a lot for that. I agree that would be too much intensity. Tempo run, fartlek, and a race with 4 days aerobic falls pretty well with Lydiard's sharpening phase. My long runs are anywhere from 8.5- 10 miles. If I peak at 45 miles a week during track. Is starting the base phase at 45 miles a week too much?

I think you may need to forget about the 100/100 workout. Although maybe 6x200 after your tempo run wouldn't be bad. Or something along those lines. And taper is crucial but you have it planned well