What is Cherono's 7:53 worth?

"With the current type of training, in which we use high intensity for LONG DISTANCES, and not only short intervals............

.. the training of great long distance runners of the past instead is now old and out of date."

Very interesting and fascinating.

Always great to read your posts.

Renato,

Thank you again for your input.

I have a question: what do you think of as "old training" that is now outdated, as opposed to the current training for long distances?

Dear coach Canova:

You speak out both sides of your mouth. I understand about there being only a handful or less top level 10KM races each year. So you are going to train specifically for the two chances to run 10KM? The reasoning behind that is? When that 10KM-athlete of your stable meets another like a Gebr or KB, at 5KM what do you believe the result to be? Is it worth the time & energy to maybe be so well prepared for only two races per year to sacrifice the other events that will be contested during each season?

The record for 10KM will never be 26:00.00 & held by a runner with only 12:37.35 5KM speed, never. More like 12:28 or so.

What you are saying is a 64 second difference.

Only a runner with relatively low sustainable 5k/10k endurance would have a difference that great.

Even Emil Zatopek, who ran 13:57 and 28:54 on torn up dirt tracks had only a difference of 60 seconds, which is a ratio of 2.07.

For a 10k of 26:00 this would be a 5k of 12:33, a difference of 54 seconds.

You might recall seeing the training of Zatopek being primarily short intervals. I have his daily training and there wer no long fast paced runs included.

Surely you could see moving this ratio from 2.07 to 2.06 with this improvement in training.

In any case, many top runners already acheive this, as Renato has shown.

dunes runner wrote:

You might recall seeing the training of Zatopek being primarily short intervals. I have his daily training and there wer no long fast paced runs included.

Dunes

Don´t misundrestand Emil Zatopec training. In fact that short intervals not very intense the most of the times (event pace mainly or quite close) with easy runs jogs in between that are a non-stop workout really that can be consider similar to a continous run or a IN-OUT continuous run, FAST-SLOW-FAST-SLOW, for many miles. That´s not classic very intenese shor reps neither classic german interval training (very intense sets with incompete recover).

Imagine a group of several runners in a 10000m running at 26.00 pace, that is rather different to one person going for that time on their own.

At that speed, you are going to get a slight draughting advantage of at least half a second per lap. Also the extra competion would make a difference too.

Sub 26 is going to happen. maybe not next year, it might take several years, but it will happen.

NOT REAL....MAJOR, MAJOR USER OF EPO/REPOXYGEN.

Yes, Renato I would like to know how Bekela's training is outdated, 5/10Km ratio 2.0866, WRs mind you? Or how about Gebr's training, 5/10km ratio 2.0843? Your Kemboi should be able to hit 12:42, correct? 13:01 & 26:30 is way out of joint. What you are showing us is an athlete who peaked big time or popped for the longer event, not the direction of training. Renato could you please explain how Paula Radcliffe ran 2:15:25 with a 14:30/30:01 to her credit? If this is legal then take Bekela use the same NEW training that you say you have viola, 1:57:46--1:58:51 from his 12:37/26:20. You have not shown any of us anything new in your training, merely great athletes having out of ordinary performances after having lesser performances. Bekela is well trained & has performaned his events well & faster then all humans that have come before him, therefore we are not seeing this 2.06 ratio.

Jzs just out of sure curiosity what are you're credentials? How many WR holders/Olympic champions have you coached? Serious question.

JZS -

Let's look at the founder of this website and examine his PB's. If I'm not mistaken, Weldon has PB's of:

13:57 ---> 5K

28:06 ---> 10K

Do you like this ratio?

Hopefully we can get John Kellogg to discuss Weldon's training for us. Wejo any comments?

Antonio,

Yes, agreed. Also 5k runs to the forest etc.

No long fast paced sustained runs though.

Jzs,

You are right about the difference in Geb's and also Bekele's records.

Remember though, that Geb's 5k was broken by Komen. Also they had close races, then Geb got the record back again.

There was competition with Tergat in the 10k, but not the same competition as to times. Also the 10k attempts would be one time a year at the most. I am sure Geb was capable to run the 10k much faster than he did. Also note this past year when Geb was pushed in both events he ran 12:55 and 26:29 which is a 39 second differential and a 2.05 ratio.

Now this year also Bekele has been pushed in the 5000 meters. Not as to times but competitively. Also he has run the 5000 meters a few times. He has had not the same competition in the 10000 meters.

Also he ran his 10k record mostly by himself and the splits show there is much room for improvement. Much more than in the 5k.

Based on Bekele and Geb doing the same training and training together, also Bekele's excellence in cross country, Bekele could very well have the similar ratio of 2.05 as for Geb.

Even with a 2.06 ratio, however, this would give Bekele a 10k of 26:00.

I am sure that Weldon would tell you he has under performed at 5000 meters. I would assume that weJo could run evry close to 13;30 if this was his aim. I am also sure that JK would have plenty to say to our Euro speaking "experts".

I think that the problem of "ratio" is a false problem. Athletics is something conventional, and training is normally a compromise between the natural attitudes of the athlete and the official event. Are you sure that, if distances like 600m, or 1500m steeple, or 300m HS, were official, the record holder had to be the same of 400 or 800, of 3000 steeple or of 400 HS ? Are you sure that, if also for men the weight of shot (4 kg), discus (1 kg) and javelin (600 gr) was the same of women, the record holder could be the same ?

So,you must remember that, regarding EACH RUNNING EVENT, two different typologies of runners exist : "The fast" and "The resistant". Under this point of view, to speak about a "ratio" is an exercise of phylosophy, very much appreciated by many readers and writers of the post, but that has nothing to do with the real solution of an individual training. If, for example, El Guerrouj in the future will move to 10000m too, I think that his ratio will be about 2.09, because there is no doubt that, for 10000m, he is a "fast" type of runner. But, when you want to exhamin the reality, you cannot forget that the density of hard competitions in 10000m is very much little than in 5000m. Look at the all-time lists, and can see like the most part of the performances are in Bruxelles and Hengelo, the only sites where 10000m are frequently run at top level. Also analyzing the development of the races where the athletes beated WR, we see that Gebre and Bekele were alone for the last 6.5 km, while, for example, Tergat was back Paul Koech till 8800m. Regarding Nicholas Kemboi, Ißm sure that, last year, he could run 5km not in 12:42 but in 12:50. The difference is that he was in a wonderful race of 10000m (how many athletes were able to improve their PB last year ?), never in a fast race of 5000m when was in shape. This is a demonstration of the importance of the pace of the race, and of course, if in 5000m there are more opportunities, the PB in 5000m are closer to the potential of the athletes than the PB in 10000m.

Regarding the fact that I prefer to prepare runners of 10000m for this distance (also if they can run it only 2 times a year) instead for 5km, my answer is clear : I PREPARE FOR 10000m ATHLETES THAT HAVE MORE CHANCES ON THIS EVENT, not who has less chance. For example, I don`t prepare Mark Bett (12:55) or James Kwalia (12:54) for 10km, but John Korir and Hassan Abdullah, that also run HM.

And in any case remember that, if you prepare well 10000m, you can run well also 5000m, while the contrary is not true.

At least, regarding the WR of Wang Jung-xia, I want to remember that the record of 5km, at that time, didn´t exist. In other case, Wang could be able running under 14:10, may be also 14:00 (with 8:06 is possible). I don´t know if she was doped (personally I don`t think, because among 1.5 billion people, is not so difficult to find one athlete out of the normal), but I was in San Sebastian, during the World Marathon Cup in 1993, when the group of men leaders of the race reached the group of women leaders of their race (started 15 min before) about 30km. Wang went very easy inside the group for a split of 9:07 between 32 and 35 km,with the pacer (Dominique Chevalier) very sorprised to see a woman staying with the leading group.

In 1993, Wang could run under 29minute.

Wang Jung-Xia admitted that she/the whole group was using drugs, she also said that she hopes that Radcliffe breaks her records for this reason.

I missed this. Do you have a link?

the expert wrote:

Wang Jung-Xia admitted that she/the whole group was using drugs, she also said that she hopes that Radcliffe breaks her records for this reason.

Renato,

I cant believe that a coach at your level can say that you dont believe that wang was not using drugs!!!

She has admitted the use of drugs and every expert in the running world would not consider theese records as the "true" records...

Statements like this makes me very suspicious to you and your runners... You talk like drugs in athletics where almost not existing, but we all know how large the problem is!

And Kemboi coming to Brussel and run 26.31 from "nowhere" makes me really suspicious to you!

Anyway, I appriciate your posts on this forum, but not your doping comments...

Renato is obviously an optimist, I don't have a problem with that. To accuse him of dishonesty, you need some evidence and I can't find any.

I can't accept the Chinese records from Beijing in 1993, because to me it seems as though the track was not 400m, more like 380. I have analyzed it statistically and that is my conclusion.

All Renato is saying is that if you have a genepool of 1,300,000,000 and a national program, and a crazy coach who's having his runners run 45km/day, then there is a chance that an unbelievable genetic freak could come through.

If Ma coached 10,000 women, all running 45km/day, all eating rights, all hitting their workouts, suppose he is left with 10 unbelievably fit girls...

I'd say there's about a 2% chance that the performances were genuine, but as always, there is a chance...