someone had to do it wrote:
1) Develop an aerobic base by running many miles at a high end aerobic pace
2) Develop a speed base by doing short sprints (40-60m) at maximum effort with full recovery
40-60m isn´t enough, should be combined with 100-150m sprints to touch also the anaerobic lactic system among with alactic.
tguyhijk wrote:
40-60m isn´t enough, should be combined with 100-150m sprints to touch also the anaerobic lactic system among with alactic.
40-60m is enough
you do longer sprints later
this is base phase
rekrunner wrote:
No one talked about periodization.
"Yes, the Lydiard system does a lot to develop speed, once you've developed a good base of endurance."
Sounds like a periodization.
someone had to do it wrote:
40-60m is enough
you do longer sprints later
this is base phase
No, it´s not. If you don´t touch the lactic system in the base phase, your anaerobic capacity will deteriorate and you got more work to do to sharpen it. Anaerobic capacity has to be trained before building the anaerobic power in the pre-season.
tguyhijk wrote:
No, it´s not. If you don´t touch the lactic system in the base phase, your anaerobic capacity will deteriorate and you got more work to do to sharpen it. Anaerobic capacity has to be trained before building the anaerobic power in the pre-season.
what the sh!t are you going on about
40-60m sprints are standard. Canova's guys do it year-round. Everyone from 800m guys to marathon runners.
Noting will "deteriorate" by doing 40-60m sprints except one's lack of speed.
There isn´t any magical "standard" sprint workouts that are written in stone, expect for you Canova believers. 40-60m sprints is maybe enough for 3k and up runners, when a high anaerobic capacity isn´t needed. Short sprints are great for 800m runner as well, but as I wrote earlier, it must be combined with longer sprints to work the lactic system as well.
Base training of Vebjoern Rodal:
"Base Training
Monday 30 min jog and flexibility
Tuesday Easy long run
Thursday Easy long run
Saturday 1h 30 min Aerobic long run
Example week from basic training from November-March
Monday 1) 30min aerobic run 2) long intervals aerobic ex 10x400+2x200
Thursday 1)30min aerobic run 2)Springy (like described earlier)
Wednesday 1) 30min aerobic run 2) Anaerobic quality ex 3x600m, rest 10-12min
Thursday 1) Cirkel strength (traditional exercises) 2) Long intervals aerobic like Monday
Friday 1) Rest 2) Anaerobic sprint 3x150m + 3x120m + 3x100m, rest 3-5min
Saturday 1) Strength work (like described earlier) 2) Rest
Sunday 1) Long run 45-60min in spring an 2 hours in autumn. 2) Rest"
See the friday´s session called anaerobic sprint. Very effective to touch the lactic system.
Pondering wrote:
Re reading Running with Buffs today and thinking about Lydiard's quote: (paraphrased) "there are lots of runners in the world who can run 46 seconds for 400 meters, but only a few who can run 1:44 for 800 meters, or two laps of 52 seconds. Therefore it is far more essential to train endurance."
What if the runner doesn't have the 47-48 speed needed at the minimum to go 1:44? Isn't it necessary to train speed? This goes for 1,500-5,000 as well.
Speed is limited by genetic factors and cannot be developed meaningfully; one can only learn to call upon the capacity for speed that he already has. Most people will never touch 47-48 no matter how they trains.
Exercise Physiology Truth wrote:
Speed is limited by genetic factors and cannot be developed meaningfully; one can only learn to call upon the capacity for speed that he already has. Most people will never touch 47-48 no matter how they trains.
Pointless drivel. You could say the same about endurance.
tguyhijk wrote:
rekrunner wrote:No one talked about periodization.
"Yes, the Lydiard system does a lot to develop speed, once you've developed a good base of endurance."
Sounds like a periodization.
Every training system does. What is the one that does not ?
OK. Have it your way. The Lydiard system does a lot to develop your speed before you race.
tguyhijk wrote:
"Yes, the Lydiard system does a lot to develop speed, once you've developed a good base of endurance."
Sounds like a periodization.
total wrote:
tguyhijk wrote:"Yes, the Lydiard system does a lot to develop speed, once you've developed a good base of endurance."
Sounds like a periodization.
Every training system does. What is the one that does not ?
I didn´t say that periodization is bad. It´s good to have a plan.
someone had to do it wrote:
Base Training
1) Develop an aerobic base by running many miles at a high end aerobic pace
2) Develop a speed base by doing short sprints (40-60m) at maximum effort with full recovery
---
3) Once the above two things are accomplished, marry the two together with speed endurance workouts
This is lydiard training in a nutshell.
Most people understand the necessity of the first point, but not the second.
This is not Lydiard training at all. It's dimwits who have read about Pereira's/Renato's/Hudson's funnel concept, and desperately try to convince themselves and the world that Lydiard invented this too (just the way he invented running itself, you know).
NO. This is NOT "Lydiard training in a nutshell". Either you are being sarcastic or do not know Lydiard training.
First off, speed training as per Lydiard needs to be defined, to be able to talk about it intelligently.
Anaerobic training needs to be understood to get it, as well.
Speed in Lydiard's language was primarily a nuero-muscular thing, not so much a cardio-vascular thing.
You can develop a good aerobic capacity, top-up your limited anaerobic capacity, but then you need to develop fine muscular speed and the nervous system; fine motor development to run well with this higher-level of fitness.
Are the lower leg, ankles and feet well-developed to handle the power and torque and turnover required for fast stuff like 400s for example? A hill phase needs to be implemented, for this!
Is the anaerobic system at its best? If so, then a fully developed aerobic system, coupled with the above and the coordination to run well, will allow you to run your best on the day - all sequenced and timed correctly.
Just sprints + aerobic development is part - vital - but only part of the equation.
When Lydiard was asked what is the most important part of his training, he said, "everything".
Saying that, you can run a varied and large-volume base phase and come out of it ready to race well and perhaps better than before, depending on your history et al, but to run at your absolute best, you need to do all, in sequence.
Within each of the phases...
Base
hills
anaerobic
coordination
(as well as sprints/strides)
...you need to do some training by feel, without the watch, hrm or specific paces. Most people today, just wont get this final point no matter how many time you say it.
Also, many people will never run enough volume in the aerobic section (while avoiding racing and other aneorobic work), scared they might melt.
And then there are many things that are generally misunderstood. Like for example, what is "easy" and what is, "not fooling around" in Lydiard language? What is an out-and-back run? When to do anaerobic intervals without a plan for number of reps or effort. What is a peaking workout? .......
To properly understand Lydiard training, you can't just read a document online or have a conversation over a jog at the lakes with someone and then somehow know it intimately.
;o)
tguyhijk wrote:
someone had to do it wrote:40-60m is enough
you do longer sprints later
this is base phase
No, it´s not. If you don´t touch the lactic system in the base phase, your anaerobic capacity will deteriorate and you got more work to do to sharpen it. Anaerobic capacity has to be trained before building the anaerobic power in the pre-season.
~ You hit the nail on the head. capacity always has to be developed before power. Fill your energy tank up first, then you can tap into to it with power.
tguyhijk wrote:
rekrunner wrote:Yes, the Lydiard system does a lot to develop speed, once you've developed a good base of endurance.
Speed cannot be neglected for months when 47-48speed is needed. Or slower, if you try to reach your best at 800m.
Lydiard periodization is ridiculous.
Agreed. It's not like Lydiard's methods have worked for any athlete's or anything.
Athleticsillustrated wrote:
Wall of Text
Way too long, sorry. Not reading all of that.
I stand by what I said
The rest of your nerds on here can quibble over terminology.
1) Develop endurance through steady state running
2) Touch on speed regularly with short sprints (this is done with greater focus during the hill phase)
3) Marry the two together once 1 & 2 are completed
Lydiard was good, now move on wrote:
This is not Lydiard training at all. It's dimwits who have read about Pereira's/Renato's/Hudson's funnel concept, and desperately try to convince themselves and the world that Lydiard invented this too (just the way he invented running itself, you know).
Wrong
Develop endurance first
Touch on speed regularly, but with greater focus second
Marry the two together
Not complicated. This is the basics of what he had his athletes do.
Your nutshell is too basic. Here is a more complete nutshell:- develop general endurance (long runs, high mileage, medium tempos, easy fartlek)- develop general power, strength, flexibility (hill training, jumping/bounding drills, leg-turnover)- develop general "anaerobic" resistance (stimulate your body to respond to high quantities of lactate and low arterial pH)- develop race-specific coordination ("marry" all of the above in a race specific context)- freshening (also known as "taper")- race- repeatOf course, since the real world is never ideal, all of this can be adapted or superseded by individual needs (weaknesses, goals, race schedules) of the athlete, yet still remain "Lydiard".With respect to the original question, note that I excluded the term speed (on-purpose) from my nutshell. Here's a quiz: where is the speed training in this Lydiard nutshell? Is your speed developed on the hills, or on the track?Lydiard considered classic interval training at the track as counteracting speed. This is because after a few weeks, the high intensity/high volume interval training eventually causes your speed to deteriorate, then your endurance.Again, with respect to the original question about speed, too often Lydiard is over-simplified (in convenient nutshells) as some kind of pure emphasis only on the "long, slow" training in the endurance phase, that Lydiard recommends in the off-season, when you are not racing, and speed is not needed. For example, if you are not racing in the winter, you don't need speed, nor speed training. In the hill phase (up to 6 weeks), and anaerobic phase (could be 3-6 weeks), and coordination phase (could be another 4-6 weeks), there are plenty of workouts at a variety of lengths and paces and intensities way beyond this much feared focus on long slow running making slow long runners.In a nutshell, within the Lydiard system, there is plenty of opportunity to "do enough to develop speed", despite his observation that most runners have not developed their endurance.
someone had to do it wrote:
Wrong
Develop endurance first
Touch on speed regularly, but with greater focus second
Marry the two together
Not complicated. This is the basics of what he had his athletes do.
I can only lead you to the water, I can't fix your short attention span. Two of us pointed the way, sink or swim.
Mountain View wrote:
tguyhijk wrote:Anaerobic capacity has to be trained before building the anaerobic power in the pre-season.
~ You hit the nail on the head. capacity always has to be developed before power. Fill your energy tank up first, then you can tap into to it with power.
Thank you!