This guy generally seems to have very little knowledge of American distance running. Wheatings troubles these past couple years have been mostly injury related... he failed to discuss this even one bit. If youre going to write an arcticle centered around 2 runners, you should probably research enough so that you at least have a clue what youre writing about
Hardloper wrote:
Dan Taylor wrote:Gee. You left out their 10k PYRs. Why is that?
Because their 10k PRs were not needed to prove the point that no one has a faster 10k and 800 than Webb.
Exactly. You need only show Webb's PR is .02 seconds faster than Said's to prove that his combined 800m/10k PRs are also faster. Basic math
Dan Taylor wrote:
Exactly. You need only show Webb's PR is .02 seconds faster than Said's to prove that his combined 800m/10k PRs are also faster. Basic math
Who said anything about a "combined 800m/10k PR"? What even is a "combined PR"?
Dan, please contribute something to the thread if you post here. You're just trying to make a senseless argument out of nothing.
The way he ran the 2005 WC final was sporadic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abxUL7zz1nI
After a big 2001, having two down years and then up again in 2004 was sporadic.
After a good 2004 and 2005, he had no 2006 summer season.
2007 was fantastic until it came to the most important race of the year, which he ran poorly.
That's sporadic.
After his 3:30 in 2007 his season bests go to 3:35 to 3:42 to 3:36 to 3:37 in 2011 and 2012.
And his 2011 outdoor best was run in March in Australia and then he fell off.
A lot of good stuff but it was sporadic through his career.
Manzano has been top 3 at USATF 8 years in a row and has competed in every global championship. He even has the top US time this year.
But we all know Manzano's brilliance is sporadic.
Gotta agree with Hardloper here. He could also have said that Said's 800/10K PRs were unmatched and be correct.
Are Aouita's bests a little more impressive? Perhaps, but that wasn't the claim. You'd have to better Both Webb's 800 and 10k to win here.
Exactly. OP's detailing of various seasons aptly demonstrates that Webb's brilliance has, indeed, been sporadic.
* wrote:
After a big 2001, having two down years and then up again in 2004 was sporadic.
After a good 2004 and 2005, he had no 2006 summer season.
2007 was fantastic until it came to the most important race of the year, which he ran poorly.
That's sporadic.
...
A lot of good stuff but it was sporadic through his career.
Webby threw down some fast time trials with the help of big Pharma, but he was too much of a head case to rise to the occasion and place well in an important race.
Wrong wrong wrong wrote:
Centro has won bronze and silver WC medals with slower prs than that, just as Leo won Olympic silver.
You missed the key point - a 3:32 runner would be lucky to get into the field in 2004. 2004 not 2012 or 2008.
Hardloper wrote:
I believe I've supported my case enough, but as one further point: Webb was 2-1 against Lagat in 2007, all in big races. This means Webb fared better against the 32-year-old Lagat than Rupp fares against the 38-year-old Lagat. Let that sink in.
And Webb was a 1500 meter runner racing Lagat who was also a 1500 runner. Rupp is a 10k runner racing Lagat at his distance.
'Sporadic' is relative to the expectations that you have.
Being a 3x US champ etc is certainly more than a flash in the pan (and I would consider it to be better than simply sporadic), but being the high school phenom 'Alan MF'n Webb' meant we expected him to be competitive every time he stepped on the track... a few achilles injuries, achilles surgery, compulsive training/hammering workouts and you get the career that he's had.
The arc of Webb's career is pretty commonplace...sporadic is normal, consistent performers like Bekele et al is the exception from the rule.
bubbadeeboo wrote:
'Sporadic' is relative to the expectations that you have.
Being a 3x US champ etc is certainly more than a flash in the pan (and I would consider it to be better than simply sporadic), but being the high school phenom 'Alan MF'n Webb' meant we expected him to be competitive every time he stepped on the track... a few achilles injuries, achilles surgery, compulsive training/hammering workouts and you get the career that he's had.
The arc of Webb's career is pretty commonplace...sporadic is normal, consistent performers like Bekele et al is the exception from the rule.
+1 Imagine what this board would have had to say about Jim Ryun.
One hit wonder?
dkny64 wrote:
+1 Imagine what this board would have had to say about Jim Ryun.
There are dictionaries--both online and printed as books--that could help you. "Sporadic" is not relative to one's expectations.
bubbadeeboo wrote:
'Sporadic' is relative to the expectations that you have.
Being a 3x US champ etc is certainly more than a flash in the pan (and I would consider it to be better than simply sporadic), but being the high school phenom 'Alan MF'n Webb' meant we expected him to be competitive every time he stepped on the track... a few achilles injuries, achilles surgery, compulsive training/hammering workouts and you get the career that he's had.
The arc of Webb's career is pretty commonplace...sporadic is normal, consistent performers like Bekele et al is the exception from the rule.
read read read wrote:
You missed the key point - a 3:32 runner would be lucky to get into the field in 2004. 2004 not 2012 or 2008.
2007 was Webb's best year.
Arturo Casado of Spain placed 7th, ahead of Webb in the WC final, and he had a lifetime PR of 3:34 at the time.
He eventually improved his PR to 3:32.7 three years later.
Andrew Baddeley made the final and had a lifetime best of 3:34.
Nick Willis didn't go under 3:32 until years later but made that final.
Shedrack Korir got the bronze that year and he isn't so much more impressive than Centrowitz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_World_Championships_in_Athletics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_1500_metresHardloper wrote:
Wrong wrong wrong wrote:Running "fast" is only a small part of makes a great distance athlete, *racing* well is the most important part.
You're right. And Webb has won more major international races than Rupp, Manzano, Centrowitz, Wheating, Ritzenhein, etc. Only Rupp has won more US outdoor titles.
Rupp: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 (5k +10k, then silver at Olympics), 2013
Webb: 2004, 2005, 2007
Centro: 2011 (then bronze at WC), 2013 (then silver at WC)
Now, Rupp and Centro aren't even done yet. But, if you add in the 2nd and 3rd places at USAs, then the difference gets even larger as Webb gets left behind and Ritz, Manzano, loom larger. Also when we look at how Webb did in the years he won USA vs how he performed at the WC/Olympics, we see that a 2nd or 3rd place finisher at USA usually performs better.
A few of my thoughts for this thread.
First off you can just as easily say that no one has run as fast at 800 and 10k as Webb just as you can you can say that no one has run as fast at 800 and 10k as Said Aouita.
Secondly, yes Webb did well at multiple US Champs and Diamond League races. At the end of the day though this does not take away the term sporadic. It does mean he had a good career. One as good as his early promise maybe not. He is sporadic however. He would run lights out one weekend and then not show up the next. Most distance runners are like this though. Our top guys who have medals are exactly the same. Other than people like El Guerrouj most distance runners are sporadic however.
Finaly, We should support our top runners more than we tear them down. I don't understand fans of a sport who constantly put their top athletes down.
Letsrun Gunner wrote:
Our top guys who have medals are exactly the same. Other than people like El Guerrouj most distance runners are sporadic however.
Rupp and Centro aren't sporadic at all, but amazingly consistent, especially at championships. That leaves Manzano, but even Manzano tends to just be sporadically bad early and late in the seasons when it doesn't matter.
* wrote:
read read read wrote:You missed the key point - a 3:32 runner would be lucky to get into the field in 2004. 2004 not 2012 or 2008.
2007 was Webb's best year.
Arturo Casado of Spain placed 7th, ahead of Webb in the WC final, and he had a lifetime PR of 3:34 at the time.
He eventually improved his PR to 3:32.7 three years later.
Andrew Baddeley made the final and had a lifetime best of 3:34.
Nick Willis didn't go under 3:32 until years later but made that final.
Shedrack Korir got the bronze that year and he isn't so much more impressive than Centrowitz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_World_Championships_in_Athletics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_1500_metres
That's fine but has nothing to do with a 3:32 runner having a hard time making it into the 2004 final.
You idiots fail to see the reality in front of you including the jacka$$ quoted on the main page.
#1 Clean athletes have sporadic performance years. The best sign of a clean athlete is the natural cycle of sporadic performance due to training and racing at that level. Look to any cheater who has been caught for the evidence of consistency. You can inlcude sprinters and even scrub runners race to race like Christian Hesch. Dopers can still perform consistently well while injured depending on severity of injury. Webb is clean and his poor racing last 3 years prove it. All cheaters keep cheating to save face and their elite profile money making ability. Sporadic racers should be celebrated for being a real representation of 100% of all other elite runner's careers.
#2 Webb's 10k PR was his debut. That says it all for how gifted he is.
WEBB best ever wrote:
Webb is clean and his poor racing last 3 years prove it. All cheaters keep cheating to save face and their elite profile money making ability.
No, cheaters can't dope continously, they got to cycle on and off and switch up the drugs as new methods of detection are released. For all we know Webb couldn't use the same stuff after biological passports came out and doesn't respond to whatever would fly under the radar.