which state has the hardest high state xc course?

I'm from Missouri, and the course would definitely be in the top 5, but they have made it a bit easier in recent years. Hills have been trimmed and modified (it's a golf course, so lots of room to play with)... and I would say the current course is about 10-15 seconds faster than the one from the early 2000's where Matt Tegenkamp set the record of 15:26.

when I was running it was Misery... i mean Missouri, the last 700m is uphill and it was deceivingly steep but they made it easier/wimped out so I don't know anymore

M.C. Confusing wrote:

Idaho rotates their state course, but a few of the courses they use are just awful. Hells Gate and Soda Springs are both awful.

Hells Gate is a cupcake compared to Bryden Canyon Golf Course where Lewiston used to have it's home XC course. The State made them change it to Hells Gate or else they wouldn't get to host the State Meet because too many schools complained about the Bryden course.

That being said, they could make the Hells Gate course flow a little better.

If you compare state XC marks -> FLN Regionals and NXN Regionals, and FLN/NXN Regionals -> FLN/NXN Nationals, the slowest courses are Colorado and Vermont (and Maryland, if you consider the fact that it's 3 miles instead of 5k)

pv runner wrote:

The CO course in Colorado Springs is at over 6000 feet, which alone makes it tough. I did not compete there in HS but ran for Colorado College XC in college. I lived at home near sea level in CA during the summers and returning to Colo. Springs for XC in fall was tough.

Clarifying a little here, Colorado's course climbs 150 feet, all in two steep sections, between mile 1 and 1.5 and the course is already at 6100 feet of elevation. The two climbs are followed almost directly by an even steeper descent. It's a good question though how long it remains the state course. This year for sure but a lot of coaches are unhappy with it. The concerns go beyond course difficulty.

minnesota? lol no

No sir wrote:

The answer is Vermont. This is not even a question. You could be a 14:30 5000 guy on the track and not break 17 on that course.

I believe Dan Grosvenor ran 1630s at Thetford last fall and then turned in a sub-15 performance on the track this past spring. He's a good cross runner too.

I vote Missouri too, it's been a few years since I ran it but it is definitely the toughest 5k course I've ever ran.

Georgia's is really tough. I think Josh Brickell was the only one to break 16 last year and he barely made it under. 7th place was over 17:00.

I know Utah's course is tough but probably not the toughest. Only 3 guys that I'm aware of have broken 15:00 for 2.9 miles. Saarel, Puskedra, and Rohatinsky.

Holmdel Park in NJ, and it's not even that close. Really rolling terrain the entire way. If you aren't ready from the gun the first 800 will wreck you, and the infamous Bowl will finish the job a mile later. On top of all that, the footing for the descent on the back half of the course is horrendous at best.

I'd be surprised if Thetford were the toughest course unless you count the rain/mud. On a dry day Thetford is pretty bland first mile and Morty really not that bad. Bowdoin worse when only the course, not the weather is considered. This is the kind of thing Meylan or Watchout should fairly accurately weigh in on.

Not so bad wrote:

I'd be surprised if Thetford were the toughest course unless you count the rain/mud. On a dry day Thetford is pretty bland first mile and Morty really not that bad. Bowdoin worse when only the course, not the weather is considered. This is the kind of thing Meylan or Watchout should fairly accurately weigh in on.

off the top of my head, of the three? times I've rated Thetford, it's been anywhere from 200.0 = 16:10 to 16:35. I don't remember if any of those were either dry or muddy conditions.

But to put it in perspective for those that don't follow speed ratings and don't know what that means... on the fastest of those ratings, that puts Thetford slower than NXN 2007 (and about a minute slower than a course like Holmdel for an All-American caliber runner - think Chris Derrick and Colby Lowe running 15:40ish, then add another ~15 seconds to it), and at the slowest about on par with NXN 2005/2006/2010 (though not as bad as 2012).

The Texas state course is some what challenging, but the thing that makes it hard is that every year there are about 15 mph winds.

Any course in CO is tough because of the altitude (One exception that I can think of: Liberty Bell, CO runners know what I am talking about). However, I am pretty sure the state course changes every two years. The course for my freshman and sophomore year was much easier than the course for my junior and senior year. I would say that the easier state course in CO was less difficult than some of the harder courses that I run at sea level for college XC.

Pennsylvania's course is a rough one. All uphill and downhill, no flat.

Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota are all flat and fast

lane 8 wrote:

Another Option wrote:

Exact same story in Ohio. It's around a drag strip.

Obviously not as good as Scioto Downs. If you are not sitting at the top of the stands, you can not see most of the race.

Not spectator friendly.

Which begs the question? Which state courses are the WORST in the spectator friendly category?? The BEST??

Ditto on Ohio...horrible option and Scioto Downs was much better for viewing and more interesting/challenging for the runners. Too much like a track race!

casual commentary wrote:

No sir wrote:

The answer is Vermont. This is not even a question. You could be a 14:30 5000 guy on the track and not break 17 on that course.

I believe Dan Grosvenor ran 1630s at Thetford last fall and then turned in a sub-15 performance on the track this past spring. He's a good cross runner too.

One of Thetford's problems is that it is about 80-100 meters long.

However, yes Dan ran a 16:35 to win the Woods Trail Run at Thetford, which is Vermont's biggest invite, and there was no mud to speak of. He would indeed go on to run 14:57 on the track (and a 9:17 3,200 I believe.) but Dan is well-above average XC runner. At the Woods Trail Run, he destroyed Jeremy Brassard who ran 17:17. Brassard went on to become the NH champion in 15:4x and run 4:16 during track. Peter Hale was third in that race, and Hale would record several 3,200 performances under 9:20. Dave Minors was fifth in 17:20 (!) and he ran 3:58 and 1:54 for 15/8 during track. How many 3:58 guys only run 17:20 on their state course? Thetford is BRUTAL.

I think Thetford is more than 100m longer than 5k.

Derryfield has been getting easier year by year for at least the last 35 years.

Hereford was crazy but they are doing construction there this year and it may not end up exactly the same but will still be hard.

There was a western Mass championship course in the early 90s (still used I think) that can be really tough if they haven't mowed the course recently.