HADD Base Training Plan Help

Lada wrote:

there's a reason why no elites or even decent runners use such a system. because it's a waste of time.

you can build up mileage, endurance, and stamina while ALSO working on the important parts necessary to run fast. Because that's what it's all about anyway, right? Running fast?[/quote]

I certainly agree with your premise that you can work on running fast while employing Hadd's base building program, but you are incorrect in your assumption that no elites do similar type work. Just because Hadd brought it to popularity on this board, don't for a minute think that he invented it. Priscilla Welch, Ingrid Kristiansen and Lassie Viren are three former elites that immediately come to mind who employed this type of training. Hadd simply found a very understandable way of explaining it. I think for this young man it could help create the strong foundation he needs as obviously he IS aerobically weak based upon his PR's and by slowing down, running more and increasing his mitochondria he will develop his systems and get faster even before he starts on specific speedwork (which obviously is necessary as well).[/quote]

But you're giving examples of FORMER elites. As I said, there are more modern methodologies out that are bringing runners to new levels.

Salazar, Canova, etc.

Yes, he can slow down and run more but he can ALSO do the strength and speed work.

This really isn't an either/or situation and I don't understand why it's being touted as such.

All I'm suggesting is a good mix of intensities and speeds and shifting the focus of that mix as the year progresses, like we've been hearing about coaches doing nowadays.

rekrunner wrote:

That's so 90's.

There is a big difference between a high-school junior running 20-30 mpw, and elite runners.

When he becomes a decent runner, then he can attempt more sophisticated training. But now it will hinder more than help.

embrace the new, bro wrote:

there's a reason why no elites or even decent runners use such a system. because it's a waste of time.

you can build up mileage, endurance, and stamina while ALSO working on the important parts necessary to run fast. Because that's what it's all about anyway, right? Running fast?

That's so 90s? That makes no sense at all.

Run more, do your easy miles at the correct pace, and hit the workouts. As simple as you can make it or as complicated as you can make it, but neglecting an aspect of your training means you're NOT improving said aspect.

So work on them all.

So should I do 5 x 100m strides on Mondays and Fridays or not?

embrace the new, bro wrote:

Lada wrote:

there's a reason why no elites or even decent runners use such a system. because it's a waste of time.

you can build up mileage, endurance, and stamina while ALSO working on the important parts necessary to run fast. Because that's what it's all about anyway, right? Running fast?

I certainly agree with your premise that you can work on running fast while employing Hadd's base building program, but you are incorrect in your assumption that no elites do similar type work. Just because Hadd brought it to popularity on this board, don't for a minute think that he invented it. Priscilla Welch, Ingrid Kristiansen and Lassie Viren are three former elites that immediately come to mind who employed this type of training. Hadd simply found a very understandable way of explaining it. I think for this young man it could help create the strong foundation he needs as obviously he IS aerobically weak based upon his PR's and by slowing down, running more and increasing his mitochondria he will develop his systems and get faster even before he starts on specific speedwork (which obviously is necessary as well).[/quote]

But you're giving examples of FORMER elites. As I said, there are more modern methodologies out that are bringing runners to new levels.

Salazar, Canova, etc.

Yes, he can slow down and run more but he can ALSO do the strength and speed work.

This really isn't an either/or situation and I don't understand why it's being touted as such.

All I'm suggesting is a good mix of intensities and speeds and shifting the focus of that mix as the year progresses, like we've been hearing about coaches doing nowadays.[/quote]

You don't say?

Usually around early-mid July, our XC coach starts summer conditioning our team (in the morning).

Let's say by July, I'm around 60-70 mpw.

For example:

I would do a LT threshold run in the morning,(with the team) followed by an easy run in the afternoon. The next day, I'll just do another easy run, and of course a long run (90-120 minutes) on Sunday.

She had us run in the morning Tuesdays and Thursdays, I'm hoping she'll have us run 3X a week (Mon, Web, Fri) for Morning workouts.

Btw, in those morning workouts, some will be LT threshold, or some will be below threshold, (say, 170-175, or 165-170, etc.)

(in July-August) some will be easy/long morning workouts.

And I know I'll be in shape by then.

And yes, she knows A LOT about speed and strengthening, and will make us do a lot of strength drills after these early pre-season workouts.

July:

For early speed, she has us do "criss cross drills" where we get batons, and we do fast strides diagonally across the fields from 4 corners (sometimes results in collisions) :)

Later around August, about once a week, we will do some intervals (At goal pace) after our runs, or even fartleks at 5K Pace. I think THIS is the 5K specific training HADD was talking about. (I may even suggest her some workouts for us to do later on from here)

FOR NOW, I will follow Hadd's training plan, nothing but easy HRM runs for the weeks to come,(with a few 100M strides here and there I guess) a 5K race a month, and increase my mileage, from now, until July.

Once I'm at 60-70, I'll keep it there until early September, with everything I mentioned above.

I'll then cut back for races, to increase intensity, since that's when the REAL workouts begin. (:

Anything wrong with that?

Heres the deal... you are making this reallyyyyy complicated. If you want to get better. Run more. If your goal was to squeeze the last bit out of your body then worrying about the specifics might be super beneficial. Your goal is simply to get faster and there is a lottttt of room for you to get faster. Run more... be smart about it, but run more.

I agree with the other posters that say HADD is a bit outdated and there are better ways to approach a summer of base building.

And hr training is even more outdated. I really don't think you need to worry about hr training in the least. There are just way too many problems with it to really be of that much use.

I also think it's really irresponsible for someone to say you should go from 20-30 mpw to 70. That's far too big a jump in such a short amount of time.

So with all of that said, I do think it's a good idea to start increasing mileage as you've said you wanted. Jumping up to 35 and staying there for a week or two, then 40 for a couple of more weeks, then 45ish for a few more, then 50ish for a few more would be a really solid summer.

The key is staying consistent. If you jump up to 70 mpw in 8 weeks time but then have to immediately drop back down to 40-45 just to cope with the fatigue and the introduction of workouts when school starts back then you haven't done such a good job. You want to be able to maintain what you've built up to.

You might try 2-3 doubles a week of 2 miles or so initially just to get you going. After a few weeks/month of that maybe bump that to 2-3 doubles of 3 miles. You can keep those nice and slow.

The rest of the time, I would have at least two workouts a week. Skipping speed and strength worth for a long time is really holding yourself back. Doing some tempos or some progression runs or fartleks once a week is a great way to keep and improve upon those upper-aerobic systems.

Having another day where you're doing a light workout of 3k,5k, or 10k pace work is also very good. For example, one week of 5x300ms at 3k pace or 4x800m of 5k pace or 4-5 x 1k of 10k pace work is speedwork that is sustainable and WILL help you improve much more than just running at a very easy pace all the time.

Adding strides to another run and hill sprints (6-10 secs really hard with walk down recoveries) can also help a lot with form and strength, two things you should really be focusing on in a base period.

Anyway, that's a long spill, but suffice to say that the old adage is true, to get faster you need to run faster. You won't be doing as much faster running as you will be later on, but you absolutely shouldn't be ignoring the faster running either.

Sub16_5K wrote:

Let's say by July, I'm around 60-70 mpw.

You say you're at 31 mpw now, and that's coming off of 20 mpw last year?

And you want to be at 60-70 mpw in 8 weeks time?

That's just a bad, bad, bad idea. Why are you fixated on this 60-70 mpw number?

I know it's one of the more irritating things to hear and try to understand, but building up to higher levels takes PATIENCE. You may very well be able to survive such a jump, but even if you do, to what end? No workouts, no fast running?

It makes no sense.

And what's more likely to happen is that you either get injured or seriously worn out and have to take some big down time to recover. And that's far worse than a consistent 40-50 mpw.

Shoot for lower mpw consistently with some quality work in there and really improve the likelihood of significant performance jumps.

I actually ran 30 MPW last year, and I definitely don't want to hit 70 MPW, I want to hit around 50-60 By July. And here's my original plan, for this week, BEFORE I discovered HADD's training:

Pre Run: lunge routine (Warm-up: jog 2 laps or half a mile, and stretch) (Pedestal)

Post Run: Cannon Ball routine (Cool down: jog 1 Easy mile and stretch)

Post run strengthening: Legs and Abs: Lunges, Squats, planks, and Sit-ups. (Mon. Wed. and Fri.)

Arms: Just Pushups and Pull-ups

Monday:

AM: Rest

PM: Tempo Run 30 Minutes LT Threshold (4-5 miles) @6:15-7:00 pace (Finish at

I actually ran 30 MPW last year, and I definitely don't want to hit 70 MPW, I want to hit around 50-60 By July. And here's my original plan, for this week, BEFORE I discovered HADD's training:

Pre Run: lunge routine (Warm-up: jog 2 laps or half a mile, and stretch) (Pedestal)

Post Run: Cannon Ball routine (Cool down: jog 1 Easy mile and stretch)

Post run strengthening: Legs and Abs: Lunges, Squats, planks, and Sit-ups. (Mon. Wed. and Fri.)

Arms: Just Pushups and Pull-ups

Monday:

AM: Rest

PM: Tempo Run 30 Minutes LT Threshold (4-5 miles) @6:15-7:00 pace (Finish at

I don't know why it's not letting me post it...

trying again:

Monday:

AM: Rest

PM: Tempo Run 30 Minutes LT Threshold (4-5 miles) @6:15-7:00 pace (Finish at

Okay, I have NO idea why it keeps cutting off what I post. Is this some kind of bug?

Anyways, here's the link to the plan:

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1870/planho.png

I don't know about all the random pushups and cannonball stuff, and whatnot, but if you enjoy it then it sounds good.

30 mins LT run is probably too hard, too long at this point and with your prs. Where do you go from there?

I'd actually suggest just breaking those down into 3 x 1 mile repeats with maybe 1 min recovery. Maybe do that one week and then 20-30 minutes of marathon pace the next week, just alternating.

You also really need to consider the weather. Someone mentioned FL? If you're there or in a similarly hot and humid place then doing long repeats or tempo efforts might be a huge strain and you might find it easier to break everything up in to smaller, more manageable chunks while just taking a walking recovery break (or getting in the shade).

I think your hr %s are way off, too. Have you ever tried running at 60% max hr? Yeah, good luck. If you're not walking after 2 mins I'll be surprised. 70%-80% also isn't really a "tempo effort" either.

I'd just ditch the hr altogether. Plus, if the weather's hot and humid that thing's going to be showing way high anyway.

Why not run on Sunday? I'd run on Sunday. Run every day until you feel you need a day off, then take it. Or if you have to schedule an off day, I'd do it every two-three weeks instead of every week.

Keep your easy runs properly easy and you'll find that after some acclimating that you can still run easy and recover pretty well.

Strides don't really count as speedwork. 5x100m is not a lot of volume. You can do these twice a week without any problem.

Sub16_5K wrote:

So should I do 5 x 100m strides on Mondays and Fridays or not?

I agree with everything you say about a modern approach.I don't see a problem neglecting speed for a few months when you don't need it. In this case, it's by design. I think it makes sense now for him to correct this identified weakness and imbalance with a focused effort on building up endurance and mileage. I'm not saying every summer, just this once.Of course it's also possible to safely build-up mileage, endurance, and stamina, while incorporating speed, but for me it's a question of establishing some balance first.I assume speedwork will resume as part of cross-country training, and then it will come back in a matter of weeks.

embrace the new, bro wrote:

That's so 90s? That makes no sense at all.

Run more, do your easy miles at the correct pace, and hit the workouts. As simple as you can make it or as complicated as you can make it, but neglecting an aspect of your training means you're NOT improving said aspect.

So work on them all.

It's that pesky little "less than" sign.

Sub16_5K wrote:

Okay, I have NO idea why it keeps cutting off what I post.

I always felt the term "outdated" was too vague. It doesn't mean that an old approach is ineffective. You say there are better ways, but the difference is marginal, and unproven. One could also user terms like "time proven" and "stood the test of time".And maybe you mean me, irresponsibly recommending 70 mpw? I didn't give any short time frame, but said it's a good target for high school students (e.g. a 17 year old junior) who typically run 30-40 mpw.8 weeks seems too short (I agree), but the 20 weeks from now until September don't seem too short. Of course, I agree with every recommendation to build up slowly and safely, taking an down week if you feel it is necessary. This might mean only getting up to 50 mpw by September. That's a big part of my reluctance now, to include speedwork at the same time, as this will delay mileage increase, increase risk of injury, to maintain an aspect you don't need, and will come back quickly when you need it, and start training it in the fall.

yuck yuck wrote:

I agree with the other posters that say HADD is a bit outdated and there are better ways to approach a summer of base building.

And hr training is even more outdated. I really don't think you need to worry about hr training in the least. There are just way too many problems with it to really be of that much use.

I also think it's really irresponsible for someone to say you should go from 20-30 mpw to 70. That's far too big a jump in such a short amount of time.

So is this plan okay then? Or should I do the Hadd plan and then do speed drills by July?

Sub16_5K wrote:

5. (dumb question, but still...) It's hot and humid a lot in Florida, especially in the summer (where I run), so I will follow my heart rate, not the pace. I should stay in my zone (I.E. 160-165) or a specific rate (Ex. 163)

VERY IMPORTANT: Should I run ALL 7 days a week? Or should I take a day off once a week? I know it's not intense running, but still. How about down weeks? If not then how often should I have a rest day? I Really need to know this, I don't want to overtrain or anything.

Also, is it good to have a long run? Or should my work days be long runs? Is it just fine the way it is now?

I appreciate anyone who answers takes the time to answer these questions :)

I'm going to chime in real quick as I've got some experience in what you're doing here (and I live/train in Florida). Last summer after an 8 week lay off (was really over-cooked after a long track season) I started up again following the HADD plan. My main idea was that it would help keep my efforts in check while I transitioned back and let me get some tempo work in without having to worry about finding marked courses.

I did HR max test and determined I my max was 185 (as a 22 y/o) and based all the percentages off of that. I would run either in the morning or at twilight in the evening (in central FL, remember...). I hate mornings - a lot - but I just deal with it during the summer.

Things were alright at first. Slow, but alright. I would run with the girlfriend whenever she was in town, and found that the paces needed to elicit the correct HR were about in line with her easy runs (7:30-8:30 usually). That was fine with me as it let me relax and I figured it was just from being off for so long. After a couple introductory weeks I started with the HADD tempo/steady efforts.

Once this got going I actually started to get pretty nervous. I would go out for a 25-30min tempo and with my HR in the full on 'LT' zone (not just steady or marathon pace) I would be lucky to crack 6:20 pace. I had run 29:1X and 14:0X the previous spring, so this was...unnerving. I kept this up for a couple more weeks, though, as I believed (and still kind of do) in the program. No improvement. I would be running well and above the prescribed HR range and be having to slow down to above 6:40 on these tempo segments.

The final straw kind of came when we were down at my family's beach house and I went for a run with the girlfriend. It was the type of Florida evening I really enjoy (sun going down, dry sea breeze coming off the water, people out and about, etc.) and I'll be damned if I wasn't asking her to slow down above 8:40 pace to keep my HR in check! This was the same week I never cracked 6:25 on a 'tempo' effort.

After this I just went back to doing runs by feel and doing workouts around the paces we would get from our coach. I had ~3 weeks before our report date, so I didn't really wanna risk playing around with something that may or may not be working much longer.

So, my advise on all this?

1. Your paces WILL be affected by the weather conditions you live in. Don't listen to all these northern pansies telling you they have to run in heat too and it doesn't bother them.

2. I think the program CAN work, it's just a matter of adapting it a bit (So do strides! 45sec recovery works).

3. Simply building up to 50-60mpw will be huge for you. The best use of the program is to keep you from straining when building up, I think.

4. Good luck!

Just run baby!