Why so much Lance Armstrong hate but turn a blind eye at Bekele, Geb, etc ?

TLW wrote:

Why is it so hard for you to look at a list, see that 2 of 3 times came from an era where there was NO TEST for the biggest PED for endurance athletes and not question that?

I'm sad you are so naive. It's obvious that the top 3 where enhanced.

In 2004 testers were still figuring out micro dosing as well.

I mean, if you want to believe that times from that era were clean, go ahead. It's not reality though and never will be. EPO was commonly used by top track athletes to lay down insane times that cannot be approached ~15 years later. Athletes didn't have to worry about testing because there was NO TEST.

I'll agree that you can question it, but where's your evidence? You can't just go around accusing people because, well, they run faster than you and they ran during the 90s.

So what's the cutoff 5k time for the 90s? 13:10? 13:05? 13:00? So, everyone that ran faster than 13:00 during the 90s was on peds?

So does the fact that Geb can run a 2:06 marathon at age 40, in the strictest drug enforcement era, help his case or hurt it?

ttyffty wrote:

I'll agree that you can question it, but where's your evidence? You can't just go around accusing people because, well, they run faster than you and they ran during the 90s.

So what's the cutoff 5k time for the 90s? 13:10? 13:05? 13:00? So, everyone that ran faster than 13:00 during the 90s was on peds?

Evidence is that 15 years later no one can approach it and there's a huge jump from 3 to 4 on the list.

The evidence, across the board of running events too mile to 10k, is drug use and hence faster times came from EPO in the 90s and early 2000s.

As for the cut off, who knows, but when you have two people in an era where the most powerful endurance drug is undetectable run times no one can appraoch 15 years later...well there's your evidence.

juranimo wrote:

Please explain this to me? Legitimately curious as I don't really have respect for either group. And I'm not really referring to "Bullying" because all that is a total joke. i dont care who is bullying in pro sports. i care about PEDs.

Lance is white. That's why. All the knee-jerk brain-washed white idiots can't wait to jump over each other to show how 'un-racist' they are in attacking whites for all kinds of things while giving blacks a pass. It's pathetic. Ask yourself who you aren't allowed to criticize and then you'll know who's in charge. You'll know who taught these "un-racists" to hate themselves and their own.

+ 1. These people fall all over themselves to be polite because they don't want to be labelled "racists." I have a term for this- POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD

HEUAHEUAH wrote:

+ 1. These people fall all over themselves to be polite because they don't want to be labelled "racists." I have a term for this- POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD

same poster.

juranimo wrote:

Ask yourself who you aren't allowed to criticize and then you'll know who's in charge.

Salazar is in charge?

TLW wrote:

As for the cut off, who knows

You do, apparently. Or are you backing away from that claim?

TLW wrote:

Geb competed in the EPO era of endurance sports and ran times that only 1 other person in that era and 1 person since seriously approached (5k).

I think it's safe to assume Geb and Komen were on EPO. It doesn't make them bad people, it's just a reality of that era, especially before the EPO test.

Lance Armstrong was accused because it was systematic doping of a team for his benefit and he is 1000 times more well known and wealthy than Geb or Bekele.

Give it some time. Kenya and Ethiopia have some people who can crack 12:40. If the acing had been more consistent and hadn't slowed so much in the second and fourth kilometers, you would have seen some new 12:40s. Until last year, the only person to break 12:50 since 2004 besides Bekele was Isaac Songok. Then you had a race with good weather and pacemaking that stayed on enough to give them a shot and six more guys did it. Compare the leader splits from Paris 2012 to Bekele's world record.

2:32.73 2:33.2

2:36.93 2:32.2

2:33.87 2:31.8

2:36.01 2:30.5

2:27.27 2:29.4

Jeff Wigand wrote:

You do, apparently. Or are you backing away from that claim?

I am not backing away from anything. The top 3 times are so far ahead of the rest, and the top 2 performers were in the epo era of the sport.

So let me put it out there - I think any sub 12:40 performance is EPO aided.

Jeff, we will not see a sub 12:40 performance for years.

It's not about pacing but about money. If you are using PEDs you go to the marathon now.

Also, how do you all feel about Daniel Komen?

TLW wrote:

I think any sub 12:40 performance is EPO aided.

But 12:40.01 is okay?

TLW wrote:

Jeff Wigand wrote:

You do, apparently. Or are you backing away from that claim?

I am not backing away from anything. The top 3 times are so far ahead of the rest, and the top 2 performers were in the epo era of the sport.

So let me put it out there - I think any sub 12:40 performance is EPO aided.

Both of those guys continued to kick @ss and take names after the end of the "EPO period."

wejo wrote:

First of all Bekele and Geb have not been proven to use performance enhancing drugs so that is one a major difference. The comparison falls apart there. Similarly, there haven't been books written saying they were doping.

However, considering the era we operate in, let us for the sake of argument say they were using drugs and it is proven.

Do Bekele and Geb go out and destroy the people who accuse them? Lance went out and destroyed the people who accused himof drugs. Then he "came clean" in an interview where many believe he is still lying.

Lance was universally thought to be guilty prior to his confession.

People wrote books on Lance because he is a huge public figure and they will sell; the US is a gossip society wher I suspect the horn of Africa is not.

Plus cycling is a team sport where he is constantly surrounded by a support group and it is more difficult to hide.

TLW wrote:

Jeff, we will not see a sub 12:40 performance for years.

Let's bookmark this thread and check back.

TLW wrote:

If you are using PEDs you go to the marathon now.

You're partially right for the wrong reason. There's still a fair amount of cheating happening on the track (as the Turks have made clear) but the more you race, the more likely you will get snared.

The reason you're partially right is that you can be of moderate talent (I use this word relative to the ones who are trying to win the major marathons and medals) get boosted on the drugs of your choice and then cherry pick a handful of races a year, and never be good enough to get flagged for out of competition testing, simply because a time of 2:08:00 wouldn't put you in the top 70 for 2012. What Christian Hesch did to American road races, these ones are doing to marathons, primarily is Europe and Asia. And sometimes they get too good and go down, as that 2:05 runner did recently.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

TLW wrote:

I think any sub 12:40 performance is EPO aided.

But 12:40.01 is okay?

I think you're missing the point. There are only 3 performances under 12:40, so that's where the line is being drawn.

Jeff, I think you make good points but I just disagree that Geb and Bekele were clean.

The EPO era happened and post EPO era micro dosing began. Times that were run during this era are still untouchable which is not my opinion. It's a fact for a number of events.

We can both defend our positions all day, but in the end there was an era of our sport (and all endurance sports) that was dominated by the most powerful endurance drug available that was UNDETECTABLE. During this era times that cannot be touched today were run. You defend these athletes for being clean during this era and I don't.

I would also like to know what you think about Daniel Komen and the times he ran.

If a sub 12:40 is run in the near future it will be someone from a training group with access to something others do not have or a new generation epo variant.

First, I am glad we can have a discussion on this without it descending into name calling, much as we disagree.

Compare the records set in the men's middle and long distances to the 1500m and 3000m times run in 1993 (and approached again in 1997) by the Chinese women. Those records are what I call untouchable.

We have men running in the mid-12:40s on unevenly paced races, Kiprop ran 3:28 last year, the 800m record was obviously just broken. With the right pacemaking, we will see those times run again.