German Account of Ryun's 3'38.2 in '67

Here's what I know. I saw Ryun race several times in person. In his prime, he was beyond spectacular, and was able to explode in a race in a manner that at least up to that time was unprecedented. There were several races apart from the one in question in which his final 200/220 split was sub 25. In the race in question in particular, every single account has one thing in common: he moved away from Tummler as if Tummler were jogging. Also, Ryun was training up to 120 miles a week, and running workouts like 40x440. No one at that time, except Gerry Lindgren, trained harder.

jayhova wrote:

said88 wrote:

With less knowledge about training. With worth shoes. On a definitely inferior track.

Inferior track? Tracks then were not that inferior sprinting-wise, only distance-wise, so I do not see how the tracks would prevent a "fastest-ever" sprint finish even if it was inferior for a mile time trial. Recall that softer tracks tend to be better for distance and harder tracks better for speed.

In 1968, Tommie Smith ran 19.83 in the 200. Last year, only two guys - Bolt and Blake - could do that on "today's tracks." It is mainly distance that has improved drastically due to technology since the late 60's, not sprinting, and ergo not sub-37 finishes.

So you think that one can accelerate and sprint on a cinder track as quickly as one can on a modern track? Surely you are trolling.

Montesquieu wrote:

Here's what I know. I saw Ryun race several times in person. In his prime, he was beyond spectacular, and was able to explode in a race in a manner that at least up to that time was unprecedented.

Um, no.

I'm really surprised that there is so much respect for german timers... Fact is that middle distance running doesn't have a tradition in Germany which is anywhere close to the one it has in Britain (for example). But for sure this is not of any relevance for the subject here. And if the pope himself would have given these splits, I still would doubt them. If I remember correctly, also one of the most respected athletic journalists, Roberto L. Quercetani, for many years has given wrong splits for the Aouita finish in that Nice '85 record (and they obviously couldn't be correct). On many occasions wrong "facts" are publicised from events which millions have followed, where a video is widely available for anybody. Just two examples: in the Rome 2004 1500m, El Gueroujs position everywhere is given as 8, whereas it's obvious that he finished on position 9. Or in the 1992 Olympic 10000m final. What really has happened between Skah and Chelimo doesn't fit with the story which is published almost everywhere.

If I found some time, maybe I will try to get a video of this Düsseldorf race (I have no clue if there is something in the archives). I really would like to see what really has happened (same for the Aouita Grosseto race from '84).

To this comments that Tümmler and Norpoth looked so slow compared to Ryun: Well, this often happens (for example the '89 800m World Indoors, where Ereng finished spectacular). But the stopwatch always tells you that nothing unreal has happened.

err

bodo was reigning euro 1500 champ

harold was bronze at 1500 & silver at 5k & former 2k wr holder with a stunning 4'57.8 which smashed the previous 5'01.2

the next 6 guys to hold the 2k wr all set wrs at either 1500/mile or both

bodo was 3rd best 1500 guy in the world at the time & harold probably 4th since jazy had retired end '66

germany may have had little tradition of milers back then but they had the likely 3rd & 4th best milers in the world & i highly doubt the german sports media did anything other than follow their performances with great intensity

we are not talking timing the last 100m in a 1500 with no easy track markings or quibbling over difference between an 8th or 9th place

we are talking taking splits at the bell & the 3 lap mark, which even the dumbest idiot can't get wrong

if you doubt the 3 lap time, you also doubt the 800m time of 2'03.6 ???

what makes you think that timers can take a 800m time & can't take the split for exactly 1 lap later ???

they all suddenly becomes grossly incompetent &/or all their stopwatches malfunctioned in space of 1 lap ???

we know bodo had a huge kick & coud finish in 40 or 41s in tactical races - 53.3 to 54.6 speed ( the article says 51 - 53 were known finishes in those days )

we know the 3 were together at the 300m mark

we know ryun won by 4.2s

that gives a prelim estimate of ryun's finish, providing bodo gave full effort of

35.8 - 36.8

ventolin^3 wrote:

deanouk wrote:There was a claim Aouita ran a 36 low last 300 in a 3:34 race in 84

3'34.8 beating mei a 5k/10k guy, who only had a 3'36.6pb by year end, by 2.54s

rest of field were low grade euros

now i'd be surprised if aouita was 10 - 15m behind this field at 1200 unless he tripped/stumbled & we wouda heard about that - a 3'34 with a stumble/trip when wr was 3'30

more likely near the front

that woud give mei a 38 finish which is not likely for a 3'36 guy running a near pb

mei more likely to have gone 42, giving aouita something like 39/40

said88 is guy with best knowledge

perhaps aouita was 10 - 15m behind at 1200...

ROFL!

So when some poster claims another athlete is credited with a 36.14 last 300 (to be precise) in (a faster than Ryun's race) 3:34.82, you say it must be wrong!! Priceless. Talk about pot calling kettle black! You're an absolute moron.

I guess Italians can't take split times but Germans can? Not to mention that the German splits differ from at least 2 other times given for that last 400.

Just because it was in Germany and a German took a split time, it doesn't make it any more reliable than a foreign journalist or statistician that was also there.

someone had to do it wrote:

No one else has been simultaneously capable of 45.low / 1:40.low / 3:24 / 3:41 either

You do realise that the automatic timed WR for 400m in early 66 (when Ryun ran his 46.9 relay leg) was 44.82 and the hand timed best at that point was 44.9?

So you are basically saying that Ryun was within 0.5 sec of being WR holder over 400m!

You then claim he was capable of times over 800, 1500 and mile that would put him way beyond all the current world records now, 45 years later, many of which were undoubtedly set by guys using EPO!

In fact you subtract so much time off for all Ryun's pbs based on track surface, weather, heat, humidity, having a bit of a headache, having run a jog heat earlier, etc, etc, that it would appear he was a walking excuse of an athlete. Have you conducted an analysis of whether or not he farted or masturbated before a race? Surely you could take a few more second off there?

So a 46.9 relay, which most normal athletic enthusiasts would say was worth about 47.5, becomes 45 low. Thats a knockdown of about 2 secs.

800 in 1:44.3 (on synthetic) becomes 1:40 low. That's 4 secs off.

1500 in 3:33.1 becomes 3:24 low. 9 secs there.

Mile in 3:51.1 becomes 3:41 low. 10 secs!!

In which case if the "Ryun conversion" (at present, and of course it will probably increase over time) works out at about just over 2 secs per lap or 10 sec per Mile, then his best 2 Mile run of 8:25.2 must surely be worth 8:05.2.

That would have made him WR holder until Komen in 96.

So Ryun was basically capable of breaking world records from 400 to 2 miles! Am I right in thinking that?

Wow!

What about the pole vault?

deanouk has a Seb Coe complex in that no one can run faster than Coe, ever. No one is as good as Coe, ever. No one has run 100m in a 1500m faster than Coe, ever.

Get over it, deanouk. Coe is not the GOAT.

Idiot. I'm not deano and I haven't made a single reference to Coe on any of my comments on this thread.

I am commenting on the ridiculous assertions of people who haven't seen a race in which they claim Ryun has run times that aren't even agreed upon by people who were there.

If 3 different experts give 3 conflicting times...50.6, 49.7 & 49.4... how can any one of them be taken seriously without seeing the race itself. What a surprise that Ventolin agrees with the fastest split offered.

Ventolin is the one making claims for a runner 45 years ago that are impossible. He used to claim Ryun's last lap was 49.7, now, because he's come across some German translation he's happy to say 49.4. And if you take this to the obvious conclusion Mentolin would take, this was equivalent to a 48.4 in a 3:34 race on a synthetic track. It is impossible. No one else in history has run a sub 50 in a 3:40 or faster.

If people want to jump on his band wagon and believe BS, then thats down to them. Just don't pretend to know a bloody thing about middle distance running.

What a great thread!And yeas, said88, this is EXACTLY what I believe and for all the reasons why you state makes Ryun the GOAT. Even in a different era his performance was jaw dropping.

said88 wrote:

Wannabe Goldbug wrote:

Look at his nick. said88 is a die hard Said Aouita fan. And Aouita is the only person with an officially confirmed sub50 last lap in a 1500m race.

He can't accept it, that Ryun did it 20 years earlier and in a faster race.

Love this!

So, you believe it? Jim Ryun was able to finish much faster than all the likes of Morceli, El Guerrouj, Lagat, Coe, Cram, Ovett, Aouita and all the other greats from the last decades could do in much slower races?

With less knowledge about training. With worth shoes. On a definitely inferior track. Just a question.

At which finishing time would you begin to be sceptical? 36,0? 35,5? 35? Or at 30,84? Just wondering.

I rather like this video better:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA

lol lol lol lol wrote:

Montesquieu wrote:

Here's what I know. I saw Ryun race several times in person. In his prime, he was beyond spectacular, and was able to explode in a race in a manner that at least up to that time was unprecedented.

Um, no.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/athletic-meeting-in-us-features-beatty-versus-snel

It's not very often that you get a chance to laugh on this board - but this made my day!

Just considering the middle distance events (800m - 1 Mile), Coe definitely is the "greatest" in the history. For sure this always depends on your scale for measuring it. But the arguments for Coe are too strong. He is by far the greatest record setter in the history. He is the only double Olympic 1500m champion. He has 4 Olympic medals at all. He was at or very close to the top for 13 years. The only weak point for me is that he was something like "the world dominating distance runner" for "just" two seasons. But his record is too strong compared with athletes like Snell, Ryun, Wohlhuter, Ovett, Cram, Aouita and many more. For athletes who were not on the top at all the middle distances events (like Harbig, Morceli or El Guerrouj) it's difficult to be ranked ahead of Coe, regardless their success in the main event.

For sure you are free to believe whatever you want. Also for me the logic behind is hard to understand.

The times I gave are for '70 synthetic tracks with even pace & rabbits

You're comparing to then WRs that were not run on '70s synthetic tracks and some without even pace or rabbits

as for the rest of your post, those are questions that have been answered numerous times and i dont feel like typing another explanation

search the archives

Wannabe Goldbug wrote:

"

said88 wrote:

Keine Ahnung was der Bert Sumser da gestoppt hat - offensichtlich nicht Ryuns Sprintzeiten.

"Die Zeit" is one of Germany's most respected newspapers and the author of the article, Adolf Metzner, was a former Olympian and accomplished physician.

I don't think he would have misquoted Sumser and I find it even more unlikely that Sumser would let himself be quoted with that time for the last lap if he wasn't entireley sure he had timed it correctly.

Was he a qualified time keeper though and timing the race in an offcial capacity

My money is on Deano being right

moron

i doubted it because i don't believe aouita had better than low-49 speed in '84

his line of fit for '84 was prelim ~

49.2 / 1'45.5 -> 3'29.9 , 7'26.4 , 12'56.7

idiot

your pebrain can't think

if he has 49.2 speed, then it is very, very unlikely you can run much better than 35-flat for an open 300

a flying last 36 after 1200m of running is virtually impossible as it's too close to his likely open 300 time

moron

i don't recall any official 1200 splits for that grosseto race being released at the time

36+ finish in a 3'34 wouda been huge news, just 3/52 before the 1500 final & immediately have made him the huge favourite as no way coe, ovett or cram were going to match that in expected slowish final

that was likely to be some fan's split NOT the official italian timers' splits

the 36 split in ryun's race was established enough to be published in a leading german broadsheet newspaper

hugely more credible

moron

where ?

T&F news gave same split of 36.4

moron

it was reliable enough to be published in a leading german broadsheet

i have never heard of any reputable source claiming aouita ran 36 in grosseto

moron

what does the 400 wr at the time have anything to do with it ???

if anything, the 400wr was weak at the time

44.9 was listed but plummer, the '60 silver medallist had a 44.6 in '63 not ratified

smith, a 200 guy demolished the official 44.9 wr the following year after ryun's relay leg '67 with 44.5 destroying evans the next 400 champ by 0.4s

smith wasn't even training for the 400

moron

caballo, a fellow 800wr holder, like ryun ran 44.26 sea-level 400wr the same year as his 1st 800wr

that is helluva lot more impressive a 400 effort by any yardstick than ryun's likely low-45 at his peak

moron

following talents were inferior & where is the epo +ves you idiot ???

no kenyan track afficionado believes bernie or noah had anywhere close to the talent of keino & those guys have gone 3'26 & 3'43 !

problem was for him was that he was a part-time athlete having to do a full-time job as a policeman all the way thru his career & only given time off to race

& keino, i've heard from his immediate police boss of 5y standing, admitting that he was nowhere near ryun's ability as a 1500 guy

utter moron

he only ever said he was ill in his 800wr

he said he was perfectly fit in his 1500wr & 2nd mile wr

he has said his legs felt "heavy" in the initial laps of his 2nd mile wr because he'd just come down from a period of heavy training at altitude, a rare occurence for him, but said he was fit otherwise, the only unmentioned implication being that he mighta liked the race a few days later

idiot

it's 46.6 flying for 400

47.3 open 400

46.3 for synthetics at 1s/lap

knock off good number of tenths off this as he'd run a wr calibre 3'55.8 prior to it

knock off some more tenths as track was sodden, evidenced by a 3'51.3wr he ran a few weeks later on a dry track, when i doubt his mile shape had improved much

that gets you low-45 on synthetics

moron

hicham ran a 3'34 to win gold in a similar slow start/fast finish race & he was in better shape than his earlier losing 3'27

that's 7s difference & no handicap of dirt to synthetic track !

complete idiot

his best distance was upto a mile

same scenario as bernie with 3'26 ability coudn't go better than 7'33 the previous year - a race he called more demanding than his 3'26

idiot

same as benie

no he wasn't in '67

however, if he'd changed fully to training for the 2 miles in '67 & dropped 800/mile, he mighta come close

utter moron

you are obviously then his = lly moronic identical twin

moron

that is a contemporary account dated 25th august '67 by the respected local newspaper

that is the most accurate written source to use, not something cudgelled from "an encylopedia of milers"

idiot

the newspaper said 49.4

if it said 49.7 or 50.6, i'd go with that

it is clearly the most credible source & it says 49.4

if your peabrain can't grasp concept of a reliable source then you are an idiot

moron

it is not impossible & it's stated as 49.4

it is only impossible to those with feeble minds incapable of thinking

an 8.90m jump was "impossible"

a 19.32 was "impossible"

impossible became actual

idiot

not just "some" german newspaper, but the "Times" of germany

if it said 49.7 or 50.6 i'd have gone with it

it said 49.4

yes

if you have low-45 speed & crushing 3'24 endurance, a 2'46 to the bell has taken virtually nothing out of you & you can bring the vast majority of your open 400 speed to the last lap

guys like cacho/gonzales have gone 50s in last laps & i doubt they had better than 48-flat open speed

a 2s difference for them

a 48 finish for a guy with low-45 speed is just the same effort as them but just a much higher level of talent

no it's not you idiot

in 20,30 or 40y we will have commonplace low-45 guys with 3'24 ability who can finish in 48.4s for 3'34

it's just that your peabrain can't grasp that we've already seen such ability 45y ago

moron

you are not running against history on the track

you are only running your own race

your peabrain certainly knows nothing about middle distance running

Even this report casts doubt on the time:

'Its time for the last 400 meters is so incredible that it sports writers apparently did not dare to publish. Still moving in traditional categories, they stated times, who commuted 51 to 53 seconds. In fact, Ryun ran a flying start the last lap in 49.4 seconds. This time is guaranteed, she was stopped by Bayer coach Sumser. The last 300 meters in 36.4 seconds sprinted down Ryun, which means a speed of nearly 29 miles per hour, and this after he had already completed 1100 m at a speed of 23.5 km per hour.'

So other reports had the last lap as 51-53 seconds

Interesting that according to Ventolin, Ryun could have run 3:24 for 1500m on faster tracks but he is capable of a closing 300m on the same old tracks in 36.4 and the fastest last lap ever in a sub 3:40