"I need to stretch more," Bernard Legat.
You are wrong. So very very wrong.
"I need to stretch more," Bernard Legat.
You are wrong. So very very wrong.
I think that "stretching" is just a term that no longer means what it used to mean. Sure, stretching before races/competition will decrease V02max and probably also performance (losing elastic power in muscles) but that doesn't mean it serves no purpose in injury prevention.
I would also say that "stretching" could easily be said to include foam rolling, ART, PNF, rolfing, or any other thing the kids are doing to de-knot themselves these days. Are all of those bad ideas as well*?
*No, they aren't.
Do you have any research studies that show traditional static stretching reduces VO2 max?
Running hills is more difficult. It would seem that it can only help. Nevertheless, Jim Ryun was excellent and he probably didn't include hill training due to living in Kansas.
"Several recent studies have suggested that stretching before activity may decrease both strength and power performance (Kokkonen and Nelson, 1996; Nelson and Heise 1996: Nelson et al. 1998). Although stretching makes the muscle more compliant and potentially reduces the risk of injury, it causes an increase in the muscle-tendon length (Magnusson et al. 1996). These changes in muscle-tendon length are quickly reversed, but have been shown to decrease force output and rate of force development (Rosenbaum and Henning 1997)."
-Physiological Aspects of Sport Training and Performance
--Jay Hoffman
That's from a text book one of my professors wrote that I had close at hand.
has some similar studies if you search there (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22316148 this one says static stretching as a sole warm-up :should be avoided"). I'm confident enough about the answer to post it on the internet, but I'll keep looking for the actual study I read on stretching and v02 for endurance athletes. Probably in a different text book.
giving your muscles a good range of motion doesn't mean stretching. If they aren't loose enough after a good warmup, there's a problem that needs a permanent fix, which stretching won't accomplish.
If you approach flexibility properly, you shouldn't even feel the need to stretch.
Clue. wrote:
OP, you are delusional.
Yes, I'm afraid the OP is on drugs.
I have to reluctantly agree with the OP on the uselessness aspect concerning speed even though I love hills. One may think it feels harder but running fast and long is lots more stressful. Maybe really short distances and short hill workouts together can improve speed, but as far as longer stuff all it did was make me stronger and have better endurance. And that has nothing to do with improving your speed as I found out disappointingly.
Hills for track are more useless than EPO!
Bad Wigins wrote:
If you approach flexibility properly, you shouldn't even feel the need to stretch.
So how do you "approach flexibility properly" without stretching?
Hills are very important. So far, no one has given you the most beneficial aspect of using hills.
Different hill work can have different effects. Knowing when to use the right workouts is important. You can bring on a peak too soon if you are not careful.
There is a tonne of power that can be developed in the ankle area and foot by running many hills. For middle distance running this is important because there is a greater pressure and push off in every stride that is required.
Hills develop the quads and lifting muscles that flat running cannot.
Hills can help to improve form, by having you lean a little into the hill, exaggerate the form a little and leave the back leg so that you get good extension in your stride.
Hills are like weight work in the gym, but better because they are sport-specific, meaning you are running while doing the resistance work.
Running downhill is good for turnover rate and stride length.
And yes uphills are simply harder to do, therefore make you fitter.
Hills are highly important, make no mistake.
When the East Africans run up the side of mountains for a few hours, make no mistake, they do it for a reason.
And yes Lydiard did say that hills are important. He also said that your feet and ankles should be supple and very strong, like a ballet dancer. Leonardo Da Vinci discovered that the foot is an incredible bit of human engineering, like suspension bridge...the power of the foot can be the difference between two athletes of the otherwise same fitness.
I ran 60 miles a week, got an injury and spent 4 weeks *walking* hard up steep hills (about 30 degrees inclination). When I returned to running I could run 70 miles a week at the same intensity as before. Hills are an easy way to gain specific strength.
wetcoast wrote:
Hills are very important. So far, no one has given you the most beneficial aspect of using hills.
Different hill work can have different effects. Knowing when to use the right workouts is important. You can bring on a peak too soon if you are not careful.
There is a tonne of power that can be developed in the ankle area and foot by running many hills. For middle distance running this is important because there is a greater pressure and push off in every stride that is required.
Hills develop the quads and lifting muscles that flat running cannot.
Hills can help to improve form, by having you lean a little into the hill, exaggerate the form a little and leave the back leg so that you get good extension in your stride.
Hills are like weight work in the gym, but better because they are sport-specific, meaning you are running while doing the resistance work.
Running downhill is good for turnover rate and stride length.
And yes uphills are simply harder to do, therefore make you fitter.
Hills are highly important, make no mistake.
When the East Africans run up the side of mountains for a few hours, make no mistake, they do it for a reason.
And yes Lydiard did say that hills are important. He also said that your feet and ankles should be supple and very strong, like a ballet dancer. Leonardo Da Vinci discovered that the foot is an incredible bit of human engineering, like suspension bridge...the power of the foot can be the difference between two athletes of the otherwise same fitness.
Running uphill can't devlop ankle strength/flexibility, downhill yes, uphill no.
And I don't accept that running uphill will develop the quads more than faster running on the flat either.
The main benefit that I can see is that you have to use perfect pace judgement on a hill to avoid getting out of breath.
What you are mentioning is NOT VO2 Max but something different. I have read similar articles as to the ones you mentioned. They do not use elite athletes in their sample pool and also conclude the active, dynamic stretching as compared to traditional stretching is for anaerobic races.
It you are talking the 100, 200, etc. I agree with you. Maybe even up to the mile. 5k and up static stretching and staying loose is more important than any potential benefit here.
And no where does it say stretching reduces VO2 max.
oijkjlkjf wrote:
wetcoast wrote:Hills are very important. So far, no one has given you the most beneficial aspect of using hills.
.
.
.
And yes Lydiard did say that hills are important. He also said that your feet and ankles should be supple and very strong, like a ballet dancer. Leonardo Da Vinci discovered that the foot is an incredible bit of human engineering, like suspension bridge...the power of the foot can be the difference between two athletes of the otherwise same fitness.
Running uphill can't devlop ankle strength/flexibility, downhill yes, uphill no.
And I don't accept that running uphill will develop the quads more than faster running on the flat either.
The main benefit that I can see is that you have to use perfect pace judgement on a hill to avoid getting out of breath.
You don't agree that more resistance will build more strength? Hills offer more resistance than running on a flat track. It is like comparing lifting heavy weights with lesser reps to lifting lighter weights but more reps. Which builds strength better?
How do you define strength?
What we are really seeking is perfect technique, where we can run faster because we are more efficient. Different terrain requires different technique.
I am sure there is a crossover from hills to flat, but trying to explain it is all very vague and conjectural.
oijkjlkjf wrote:
The main benefit that I can see is that you have to use perfect pace judgement on a hill to avoid getting out of breath.
Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Maybe it's just because I'm an 800/miler type. I'm not saying that being "loose" is unimportant by any means. I just don't feel that static stretching pre-race is the way to go about that.
If v02max is cardiac output (which is heart rate x stroke volume) x a-v02 difference (which is the difference in oxygen levels between the arteries and veins) then since HRmax is a constant and stroke volume hits an early plateau in all but the most elite runners (and even they have a limit), the difference must be in that oxygen uptake by the muscles. You might be right in that stretching doesn't reduce that uptake, but I am under the impression that since v02max is often equated to about an all out 9 minute effort (in the two mile range) that reduced power and force production inhibits efficiency. Even if it's just as simple as stretch reflex. And if you're less efficient, you're using more energy and performing worse. I could be wrong though, I'm just a dude with an opinion.
I haven't even mentioned the hill running thing because I find it so absurd. Hills (either longer runs or repeats) have a positive benefit at the very least equal to "just running faster". I maintain that the benefit is greater, because you can only run your 200s so fast flat, before the strain increases to the point of risking injury, but you probably can't run fast enough uphill for 150-200m to hurt yourself (shorter stride length, yo!) while getting the same benefit.
I agree with the OP. If you want to run faster just run faster. Stop limiting your speed by working on it. Start increasing your speed by doing it. It's quite simple.
redux wrote:
I agree with the OP. If you want to run faster just run faster. Stop limiting your speed by working on it. Start increasing your speed by doing it. It's quite simple.
If you want to run a 2:03 marathon, well just run a 2:03 marathon! What a bunch of morons we have on this thread!