HOW DOES THG HELP DISTANCE RUNNERS?

thinittru you never had any training in chemistry or biochemistry have you? What grade are you in?

>>Message:

thinittru you never had any training in chemistry or biochemistry have you? What grade are you in?

Thought the insults would not be far away!!

Are you happy that the science in use is acceptable in the cases of THG, EPO, Nandralone or the upcoming HGH.How do you see peer review in such cases.

Would Rogge, a Doctor,take any action with regards to his patients based on the level of research demonstrated with the previous drug tests.Clearly he would not and if he did he would get sued to hell.So why does he allow it in drug testing?

I rushed the tri bit and posted prior to changing.

Please explain how it acts like both andro and testo.

Please explain what you base your statement that Gestrinone is anabolic.

Would you prefer I shut up or asked the above questions.

Please correct me but was it not that they could not recognise the indications on the mass spec.The mass spec had to detect it but they had no idea what it was.

Ahh thinittru, trying to be so sweet and cooperative. Haven't you learned that you are going to get bitched out no matter how nice you try to be? They are wolves I tell you!

My questions to the apologists:

1) If THG offers on benefits then why is it banned

2) This is the big one. If THG offers no benefit, which some of the accused cheaters attest, then why do they take it?

>>Ahh thinittru, trying to be so sweet and cooperative. Haven't you learned that you are going to get bitched out no matter how nice you try to be? They are wolves I tell you!

Well,never been called sweet,sweat yes but not sweet.

Perhaps my last asailant would look at the below last post and indeed the ones above it.

RE: THG molecular structure 11/2/2003 5:27PM - in reply to Phil.

Not as simple as even the clever ones would like to pretend.

I have met and discussed with the chief wolf,Pound.Found him remarkable dim and no threat.

Because they are nearly identical in chemical structure. It doesn't show up in nuclear magnetic spectroscopy because the testers were not looking for the fingerprints.

>>1) If THG offers no benefits then why is it banned?

Spot on,it does not have to enhance performance to be banned.Stupid but true.Read the WADA code if you doubt me.

>>2) This is the big one. If THG offers no benefit, which some of the accused cheaters attest, then why do they take it?

Cos they thought it would give benefit.People takes loads of stuff to get benefit but it gives non and the taking of such is not banned.I am not sure they have come out and said it gives no benefit.Can you clarify/expand.

>>Come to think of it, I'm sorry i even started this thread.

The short ans is that anabolics enhance recovery and if you dont try to bulk up then by and large you wont.

The same reverse arguement applies for the muscle events taking EPO.

Does this help??

>>Because they are nearly identical in chemical structure. It doesn't show up in nuclear magnetic spectroscopy because the testers were not looking for the fingerprints.

I will come back to you when suitably briefed but that is what I said.They will show up but they have no fingerprint to identify it.Once they had then all the other samples could and where quickly tested.And they went from MS to tandom MS or HRMS .

OK all of you nitwits. It would be great if some of you spent less time spouting off your mouths, er keyboards and actually looked things up.

Thinittru:

Here's your peer reviewed references.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov//entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15126583

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov//entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15174177

One last thing, the whole arguement that's been batted around here, that the testing is just for the scientists to get rich is really funny. Caitlen is on a fixed income you moron. He works for a quasi academic/government laboratory complex. No one in science ever, and I mean ever, got rich by working in a government or academic lab. The most salary one could ever hope for is in the 150-200K range, unless you're a Nobel Laureate. I realize to all of you minimum-wage earning high schoolers out there in Let'sRun land that sounds like a lot of dough, but not near the compensation one can get in the business world. Like running, people get into science because they enjoy it, not for the money. My department head (whose also a runner) laughed his head off when he saw this arguement.

bump

I had to go to the net for my refs regarding the "anabolic" nature (or lack thereof) of THG because thinittru wouldn't provide any. I attempted to pick out the ones that look legit (and not like somebody selling something) but I'm no chemist. I'll gladly grant the point that THG is NOT anabolic if someone will show me a real reference saying just that. Yet the similarity to the other two steroids mentioned isn't just some coincidence

Regardless, Jacobs wasn't taking it because she thought it would make Victor Conte happy. She was taking it because it helped her performances.

thinittru wrote:

>>1) If THG offers no benefits then why is it banned?

Spot on,it does not have to enhance performance to be banned.Stupid but true.Read the WADA code if you doubt me.

>>2) This is the big one. If THG offers no benefit, which some of the accused cheaters attest, then why do they take it?

Cos they thought it would give benefit.People takes loads of stuff to get benefit but it gives non and the taking of such is not banned.I am not sure they have come out and said it gives no benefit.Can you clarify/expand.

My point is exactly what average joe said above. The athletes are taking something they believe will give them an illegal advantage. It is against the rules, they know it, and do it anyway. There are many who test positive who challenge the testing procedure, the benefit of the drug, and many other technicalities without actually denying putting them into their system. Ex: "I have never taken a performance enhancing drug" (translated: Yea, I took it, but don't believe it helps performance). So why take it? To hopefully get an illegal advantage (Cheat!). Whether you agree or not, certain drugs are illegal as a condition to participate in t&f. If your talent is not sufficient without them, you are not welcome. Seems fairly simple to me.

>>Thinittru:

Here's your peer reviewed references

The first ref says androgenic not anabolic.

The second ref;Catlin refers to allegedly anabolic properties.It is in a journal of mass spec and not an endocinological journal.

So it seems that whilst you are on the ball by finding the refs it seems a bit of a pity that you have not got round to reading them.

I fully accept that it is the fun that drives science,but I think you will agree that the politics of a big dept with increased staffing structure are a big driver.All the IOC/WADA labs are competing with one another.Cenre of the limelight and loads of free trips can't be ignored.

Have you any idea what a salary of $150000 looks to a UK prof?.Combined with the other drivers there are a good few insentives.

Sorry you did not spot the difference between looking things up and reading it.

Have you looked at any of the other research on other tests.

Also publication is only one part of the full review process.

>>It is against the rules, they know it.

Yet again I have to point out that it is not automatically against the rules to take enhancers only if they are banned.Read the WADA code for a start and ask yourself about all the anti inflams for example.

WADA allows loads of enhancers,Radcliffe with ZMA etc.

You say yourself that certain are illegal ,thus certain are not.

It is far more complicated than you think.

syphilis wrote:

it makes you run faster.

Yea, it makes you run faster.

I posted quite a lot on this when it first came out. Originally only the name THG was used and as I pointed out then there are 6 isomers of THG so it wasn't clear which one was meant. Only one of them was a known pharmaceutical product, norgestrel, which is a widely used oral contraceptive. The trenbolone reference is a bit of a red herring since it isn't as close as gestrinone, I believe they thought that the THG may have been synthesized from vetinary trenbolone? Later when they used systematic nomenclature it was clear which isomer was referred to which was a new product where the ethynyl group was the one which had been hydrogenated. This was interesting because this structure is added to oral contraceptives to prevent it being destroyed in the gut! This makes some sense since it would probably break down more in the kidneys which you'd think would help avoid detection? You'd certainly expect it to be anti-estrogenic progesterone like gestrinone, as for anabolic effects that's just a guess right now.

I agree about the salaries but I know a few who became rich through patents!

thinittru wrote:

It is far more complicated than you think.

Agreed!

However, It is simple as well. If I am a world class athlete, why would I take ANY chance of taking something that even remotely could be considered illegal unless I was trying to get an unfair advantage? Or could it be that maybe I am not world class without it as seems to be playing out at the U.S. trials as we speak.