Cruz 1:41?

Walt George. wrote:

I agree with you.

Coe wasn’t the 800mt runner he was cracked up to be.

Take away his contentious 1.41 in Florence where the official timekeeping system broke down on the night - and one finds the average of his next 5 fastest 800mt times are only fractionally better than the average of Steve Cram’s 5 fastest times - 1.43.24 as compared to 1.43.26 - and Cram would be the last to claim the 800 was one of his best events.

Take away Cruz’s legitimate 1.41 - and his next 5 fastest times were still easily better than Coe - 1.42.58 as compared to Coe’s 1.43.24.

No, Coe's average best 5 times at 800m is 1:42.83, faster than Cram has ever run the distance. Check your stats more carefully next time.

Coe - 1:41.73, 1:42.33, 1:43.07 (85), 1:43.38 (89), 1:43.64 (84)

= 1:42.83

Cram - 1:42.88 (85), 1:43.19 (86), 1:43.22 (86), 1:43.42 (88), 1:43.61 (83)

= 1:43.26

If you work out their top 10 average then Coe's is 1:43.37 and Cram's 1:43.85.

Incidentally, Cruz's average top 10 times at 800m works out at 1:42.85, but when we go to top 20 best time average there isn't much in it between Coe and Cruz, with Coe's being 1:43.86 and Cruz's 1:43.67.

And Cruz was an out and out 800m runner, while Coe was running frequently over 1500 and mile as well.

Red Arrow wrote:

Coe easily beat Cruz in 81 at the world cup when Cruz hadn't yet reached his full ability, and Cruz beat Coe in 84 when at his peak and when Coe was past his.

I wouldn't call the silver medalist "past his prime." Also, he was 1500 meter Gold medalist at that same Games and years later won the European Championships at 800 -- his only win in a championship race.

Canada Coach wrote:

When comparing Cruz to Coe, don't forget that Cruz only ran 800s, but Coe ran miles and 1500s, so you can't compare depth.

Completely untrue. Cruz also ran the 1500. Not as often as Coe but he doubled at 800/1500 in both the 1984 and 1988 Olympics. He didn't make it out of the rounds. He also ran 1500 at European meets. He's in the race when Cram broke 3:30 for the first time. He had two memorable photo finish races with Steve Scott at the Pepsi meet in 1984 and 1985 over the mile each winning by .01 sec. He also ran a very fast 1000 -- 2:14 I think. He's still the Oregon record holder over the mile 3:53 I think.

Les wrote:

Red Arrow wrote:

Coe easily beat Cruz in 81 at the world cup when Cruz hadn't yet reached his full ability, and Cruz beat Coe in 84 when at his peak and when Coe was past his.

I wouldn't call the silver medalist "past his prime." Also, he was 1500 meter Gold medalist at that same Games and years later won the European Championships at 800 -- his only win in a championship race.

He was over 800m. Coe was probably worth around 1:42.5 for 800 on a paced circuit race in 84. He was worth a second faster than that in 81.

Coe had run just 1 international race (Oslo) prior to the LA Olympics, with all his other races being in low key events in the UK. He had to use the intensity of the 7 races there to get him into shape for the 1500 final. He had missed so much training in the winter that he had to make it up in the month prior to the games training in the States, rather than racing. His build up was certainly not ideal.

guys need to realise the context of cruz's '84 season

he'd had a hard ncaa before games running a ridiculous 14 races before games

when he'd won the gold after the most brutual series of races of quicker races run, i was thinking the guy has to be finished for the year

maybe 1 euro race after & go home

he kept running on what can only have been fumes & the remnants of his games training

his 1'41.77 was run as butt-end race of the hardest season any elite 800 guy has ever run

i have no doubt he wouda gone well below the wr if he'd simply had less racing that year ( & the 800 run in say moscow not brutal heat/humidity of LA )

Yeah, he often came through in around 43s, just eased off a little before the 400m mark so he would not break the 400 record and could go on to chase the 800 record... And he was running very hard and tried to run fast!

'I have no doubt he wouda gone well below the wr if he'd simply had less racing that year ( & the 800 run in say moscow not brutal heat/humidity of LA'

So what stopped him breaking it the following year?

Rudisha owns them all...

ukathleticscoach wrote:So what stopped him breaking it the following year?

it's reported he had a slightly short leg, which eventually caught up with him & subsequent biomechanical problems

He had been born with his right leg shorter than his left. "I always thought he'd have back problems because of it," says de Oliveira. "But he had foot problems instead."

this is even worse considering races are counter-clockwise...

ventolin^3 wrote:

guys need to realise the context of cruz's '84 season

he'd had a hard ncaa before games running a ridiculous 14 races before games

when he'd won the gold after the most brutual series of races of quicker races run, i was thinking the guy has to be finished for the year

maybe 1 euro race after & go home

he kept running on what can only have been fumes & the remnants of his games training

his 1'41.77 was run as butt-end race of the hardest season any elite 800 guy has ever run

i have no doubt he wouda gone well below the wr if he'd simply had less racing that year ( & the 800 run in say moscow not brutal heat/humidity of LA )

What a load of s**t!

His race load in 84 was nothing special for someone of his age. And those 14 races include ones as far back as March!

Both Ovett and Coe ran similar amount of races in 1980 prior to the Olympics, with Coe matching Cruz on 14 (16 for Coe if you include road races in March) and Ovett just one less on 13. And they weren't running mainly college events, but international races in Europe, including a WR each.

They both ran 6 races in 8 days in the Olympics, one more than Cruz, who ran 5 in 7. They both ran in 2 finals, with Cruz in just the one.

After the games Cruz ran 4 more races within 16 days of the Games finishing.

Moreover, he ran 16 races prior to the World Champs the year before!

After Moscow, Coe ran 3 more races within 13 days of the Olympics finishing, before a back injury cut it short.

Ovett ran 8 more races in 1980 after Moscow, including a 1500 WR.

So Cruz ran a total of 23 races in 84. Coe ran 25 and Ovett ran 27.

Poor Cruz. He must have been so exhausted running "the hardest season any elite 800 guy ever run" LOL.

Red Arrow wrote:

Les wrote:

I wouldn't call the silver medalist "past his prime." Also, he was 1500 meter Gold medalist at that same Games and years later won the European Championships at 800 -- his only win in a championship race.

He was over 800m. Coe was probably worth around 1:42.5 for 800 on a paced circuit race in 84. He was worth a second faster than that in 81.

Coe had run just 1 international race (Oslo) prior to the LA Olympics, with all his other races being in low key events in the UK. He had to use the intensity of the 7 races there to get him into shape for the 1500 final. He had missed so much training in the winter that he had to make it up in the month prior to the games training in the States, rather than racing. His build up was certainly not ideal.

What you're saying is he was not in top shape. Not past his best racing years. 1:42.5 would have been the second best time that year -- how could that be past his prime?

Les wrote:

What you're saying is he was not in top shape. Not past his best racing years. 1:42.5 would have been the second best time that year -- how could that be past his prime?

Well of course he was still a force over both distances, but after being capable of 1:41, then 1:42.5 is not peak. His 81 form was peak for 800m.

Maybe with a better build up and without the illness problems keeping him from training until Jan, he might have been able to recapture his 81 form in time for LA.

There was actually less between Coe and Cruz in LA than people think. Coe ran a few metres extra wide over the course of the 2 laps, with Cruz in a better pole position. I think the clash with Jones at about 90m, the point where he was about to kick for home, also cost him a metre or two. I don't think he'd have caught Cruz, who was inspired on the day, but I think it would have been closer.

Les wrote:

He's still the Oregon record holder over the mile 3:53 I think.

Broken in 2010.

cruz fan wrote:

it bugs me when people say coe's 800 was 16 years ahead of it's time. cruz ran as fast and beat him three years later.

its time

Red Arrow wrote:

Well of course he was still a force over both distances, but after being capable of 1:41, then 1:42.5 is not peak. His 81 form was peak for 800m.

Maybe with a better build up and without the illness problems keeping him from training until Jan, he might have been able to recapture his 81 form in time for LA.

There was actually less between Coe and Cruz in LA than people think. Coe ran a few metres extra wide over the course of the 2 laps, with Cruz in a better pole position. I think the clash with Jones at about 90m, the point where he was about to kick for home, also cost him a metre or two. I don't think he'd have caught Cruz, who was inspired on the day, but I think it would have been closer.

cruz was running comfortably then blitzed in the final 100. cruz was "inspired" ? not "inspired", i'd say clearly better.

he all but equalled coe's wr later that year, and should have got gold but for bad tactics in seoul.

Canada Coach wrote:

When comparing Cruz to Coe, don't forget that Cruz only ran 800s, but Coe ran miles and 1500s, so you can't compare depth.

Cruz actually competed in Atlanta Olympics at 1500m