Mihaly Igloi

Orville, I attempted a few of the sessions in Schul's training book. It seems that his sessions take an awfully long time, a lot longer than just going out and doing say fartlek or tempo runs. Is this the case? I am not questioning whether the "interval" method works just asking if it is the case that the workouts take such a long time.

I too have Schul's training book. He started coaching himself ( completely based on the Igloi training methods, but modified slightly) and a typical week for him in the year or two leading up to his Gold Medal was this:

2 workouts a day, one on Sunday (that's 13 workouts).

Workouts consisted: short reps (90% of which were, from what I see, 100-250 yards) run at an "easy/moderate" pace. But over and over and over again. ZERO long slow distance. In fact, virtually ZERO steady paced runs of any intensity/duration period. Quite different than how 90% of the world's great runners train, from what I can tell. Like I said, quite original.

And what made these workouts, in my humble opinion, so intriguing and successful? If the repeats were run at the proper pace (not too hard), and since they were of a short duration (usually about 150 yards), they allowed the runner to accomplish the 3 most important things in ONE workout:

1) working the aerobic system, ie, not going past (or heavily past) the Anerobic Threshhold (again, this was possible because the repeats were so short, and the breaks so frequent), but not dropping the HR's too low either (ie, too easy)

2) overall minutes in Aerobic zone could be high(ie, good volume. How? Again, see above: one backs off continually just before Heart Rate reaches higher levels, and recovery jog/walk quickly returns HR to lower levels)

3) SPEED. ALL the running in these workouts are at a faster pace than one would do if they were running the same, let's say, 60 minutes steady.

What is better? A 60 minute steady run averaging a Heart Rate of 155, (and let's say run at 6:15 pace) OR.....

A 60 minute effort, broken up into LOTS of 25-30 second "bursts" of 5:00 pace, where the HR reaches 165 briefly at the end of each repeat (but is still within the Aerobic zone), then drops to 140 during recovery jog/walk (done at about 9:00-10:00 pace), and again the overall HR of the workout averages 155 ?

They BOTH might be effective everyday moderately hard aerobic efforts, but very few people regularly run the second Igloi/Schul workout. And let me repeat, such workouts can STILL be a below threshold effort, despite the faster paced repeats. And as far as risk of muscle pulls or whatever from the faster paces, one last time, these are NOT all-out sprints being done. That is not what the workout is for (of course they can done in all-out manner also later on, and I am sure Igloi had his runners do those all-out workouts too, but that is for later on and for a different purpose).

In order to run a LONG, AEROBIC workout, something MUST be sacrificed (if not, the run will be too hard, ie, anerobic, or too short). Therefore your two choices are:

The 60 minute STEADY aerobic effort, which sacrifices speed , because it contains no breaks (or very easy sections)

The 60 minute Igloi/Schul aerobic workout, which sacrifices steadiness (consistency of pace, because it allows breaks/very slow parts). But of course what you get in return for that "sacrifice" is LOTS of faster paced running.

That is my interpretation of the system, and why I think it is very unique and successful.

I cannot comment on Bob Schul's training methods. I have never met Bob nor have I read any page of his training manual. It is very possible that I did replace him in the Apartment in LA with Joe Douglas and the others but I never met him personally. My training with Igloi was very long morning and night. After I left him my long running and fartlek took much less time. As stated above, even vacation was 90 minutes of solid running for two weeks and then we went back to longer sessions and twice a day except Sunday.

Orville,

I think that I remember reading that after you stopped training with Mihaly you were self coached. You used pretty much distance work with races as your speedwork. During this period your race times were very similar to what they were with the heavy interval work. Is this true? If so, please elaborate. Thanks.

For five years in the 1960s I did speed work with Coach Fred Foot and Bruce Kidd in Canada. My track bests were all run then. I also ran two marathons in 2:32 in 6 weeks. I then spent 20 months with Igloi and ran some of the moderate distances fairly well but my legs were usually beat up. My best marathon was 2:34.

I was then coached by John Bork (1961 NCAA 880 Champion) and did more long, easier running with a little Igloi thrown in. In the next Boston, (1967), I ran 2:30.26 (MY best Boston time).

I then went to just running as I felt with monthly mileage of 226, 227, 328, 265, 295, 228, 347, 221, 224, 330. In 1971, I ran 3 marathons in 2:31.30 in 9 weeks with 2 of them being 16 days apart. At that time I raced many weekends. I feel that, since I liked the marathon I should have run more mileage for better results but am uncertain if the speedwork done in Canada did not bring my speed base down to make the long running later more productive. I was lucky because I could often compete because it was easier in that day and age, I loved to race and run and it was all great fun.

Thanks Orville. Interesting stuff.

There was a profile on Jim Beatty (who ran the World's first indoor sub-4:00 mile) in Track Coach (put out by TnF News) a few months ago.

He detailed the progression of his career and his time under Mihaly Igloi. He didn't say more than has already been mentioned here, but he did say that they ran 13 times a week and were on the track twice a day and that Igloi had him programmed for a 13:20-35 5k shortly before his career was stopped because of injury. I believe the WR was 13:38 at that time.

The biggest problem I have with the Igloi system isn't the intervals (they don't make sense to me but how can I argue with the results?) but the running all around a track. If someone (Orville Atkins) is prescribed an hour run around a 660-yard grass oval, then why wouldn't you go out and run on the roads or in the parks?

I could make arguments against the tremendously complex intervals, and having 12 different intensities to do them with, but like I said, there are at least 10 great reasons (Truex, Beatty, Grelle, Iharos, Tabori, etc.) to counter any argument based on physiology against the system. So, I won't.

We did go to the parks some Sundays but I am in agreement with being on grass all of the time. After Igloi started the Santa Monica Track club and moved to Santa Monica I stayed on the same field. Except for weekends, I ran on the 660 yard grass field and at times did as much as 45 plus laps. No traffic or curbs, it saved the legs and others could join me throughout. The reason I ran on the road on weekends was to acclimatize my legs for road races. I found that if I did not they tightened up in a marathon or other race.

I did find Igloi's training far to intensive for many runners and many said that a few months after they left him they raced very well after their legs had revitalized.

By the way, the story was that Igloi insisted on watching every step of each runner because when he was in Hungary he had sent them out one time and then he went out the stadium gate after an hour or so to find them sitting under a tree. It was said that they had been in the habbit of waiting the correct time and then splashing water on themselves and entering the stadium breathing hard. That is the story. I do know that he also could see exactly how a runner was doing and feeling by watching and he did change and devise the workouts as they progresses. That is why he doled them out in sections.

He was a master at telling what one could tolerate and at perdicting times one would run.

Schul's athletes in Dayton trained in a variety of venues throughout the year; a story about working out in a greenhouse during the winter has been a staple of his yearly visit to our club. My coach, who trained under Schul for 16 years, says he ran nearly all of his non-track-workout mileage on trails or grass.

When there has been no track available during business trips I've taken to running my interval workouts on sidewalks, in parks, on long stretches of road, firm-packed sand beaches, golf course cart paths/fairways, and so forth. As long as I had the workout plan (number of sets, interval distance, intensity level) there was never a problem. To the unitiated the workout appears like a fartlek, but...

While Igloi had 12 different intensities, Schul uses far less gradation (varying by athlete ability); as a regional-class guy (master) I've only had five intensities used during our club workouts. IMHO the system has more to do with learning all the different intensity levels/paces that can be encountered during the typical race situation.

I'm certain Orville and other more-accomplished athletes who have trained with Igloi/Schul or used Schul's manual will differ with me and perhaps even take me to task, but after two years of working within the system I think I know enough (at least to be stupid) to explain it to the 'average' individual. I don't have a copy of the manual and have been cautioned to not obtain one; most of the stuff Schul has in the manual is not for the dilletante or the casual runner...besides, that's why I have a coach, no?

I found the thread interesting reading. When one trains using the Igloi/Schul method they progress through levels constantly. There is no end except injury or old age.

To build the cardiovascular system time is the most important factor not distance. Obviously you will obtain many miles in the process. However the purpose for me is to have an athlete keep his heart rate between 70% and 80% of their max for as long as possible on hard training days which is normally two to three. (Depending on the athlete and their condition.)

The reason Igloi and I give sets to athletes is that we never know how they are going to handle what we give them. Yes we have a very good idea but things can go wrong especially if the athletes body is not up to par on that particular day. When we see the athlete struggling I cut back on the intensity although the time may remain the same.

Speed is important since the body moves easier if the speed of the race is slower that what the muscles have been trained to do.

Before the Olympic games I was doing 20 times 400 meters running three in 60 seconds and each fourth in 58. I always ran the 20th all out to see what my body could do. All through the spring and summer I would run in the mid 54's. Yes I thought about adding another five to the workout instead of running the last one as a sprint but there comes a time when boredom sets in. This workout gave me the confidence I would need to run against the best in the world. The interval was sixty yards walk and sixty back to the line. All on a cinder track.

By the way this was the only time I was on a track as all my other workouts were on a grass field where most distances were in a straight line. Igloi used a track because it was the only training site available and we both need to watch our athletes to give them the following set which is what we feel they need and can manage at that time.

When I went to the Games I thought I could run below 13:20 on a cinder track and also had the speed to go with any one who wanted to wait and sprint. The truth is I didn't feel tired until the last 120 meters of the race.

I feel my training manual is for the beginner as well as the elite athlete. I did my best to explain how to progress through easy to medium to hard workouts over a period of time which will differ with each athlete. It may take months or possibly years. I remember a time when one of Igloi's marathoners who had trained with him for two years, asked Coach when he may reach his potential. Without a blink of the eye, Igloi stated, "Maybe two more years." Can you imagine what that would do to you if your coach said that to you.

I could go on but enough for now. I will answer any questions on this site if you want but you would have to email me your questions since I usually don't frequent the site.

bobschul@sprintmail.com

bob,

i have both your book and training manual. my introduction to the sport was when jim beatty was running sub 4 indoors on wide world of sports. igloi was one of the first coaches i was aware of.

thanks for your post and all your contributions to the sport.

wc

As a young wide eyed kid in so cal I was a bit intrigued with "Iglois Boys", many (or most) of whom frequencted the then venerable Pierce Junior College All Comers meets, held in the sometimes perfect summer evening/night conditions - and on a less than friendly track - especially around 8-9-10pm. Regardless, that was the spot ... of a number of world and US national records, not to mention impressive marks in most events at all level- couldn't run unless you were HS age and women were only allowed in the stands ... both changed eventually. Yeppers - ran from one side of the infield to the other as the world record was being set in the two mile. Several of the early sub 4s were run there - one by Bob Schul, Romo, Nelson - other close calls. That Schul guy - world 2 mile record setter, 1964. He medalled somewhere in a meet over seas that same year - pretty good last lap in a mud bath.

"Igloi's Boys" prowled (ha! - or so it seemed) the infield (was it black uniforms?) often being stopped by Mihaly for him to hold court. I would 'casually saunter near' just to be near - gheez I could barely understand Igloi! There was an air of secrecy to what those guys actually did for workouts - but the rumours were that one wouldn't believe it if told anyway. Igloi would often bark at his runners in mid race to throw in a 60 pace or so lap or 660. Destroy the competition, make them submit. It seems to me the LA Track Club was a pioneering effort of sort to replicate the European style 'club' programs. The then 'Southern California Striders' team was actually a loosely formed group of very successful College/university and graduated T&FN who converged only during meets - to manhandle almost all - comers. (John Bork ran as a 'SCS' for about 70 years I think - with great success.) The Red White and Blue of the Striders was to inherit the throne as the LATC goup had 'run' its course. Seems like the SMTC didn't rise from the ashes until a bit later.

Pierce College summer meets - launched, sustained, resurrected then wane more than a few careers wane in the day. Legendary in the 60s and 70s - until? Came out of the woodwork, they did. Okay - talk amongst yourselves.

Bob, I think you and I have sort of just missed each other on several occassions. After seeing the Tokyo Olympics, I settled in an apartment on Gelber Place with Joe Douglas, Merle McGee and Ron Larrieu. After a year we took two apartments in the same Gelber Place building with Joe and Merle in one and Ron and I in another.

Incidentally, I sat next to your Mother and Father in the Tokyo stadium on that miserably cold and wet day of October 18, 1964. I am sure that your Mother would have been back at the hotel if it had not been her son's big day. She was shaking with cold well before you ran.

Congratulations on a great race! I enjoyed watching you and Dellinger that day!

When Coach Igloi left Dorsey, I stayed with Larrieu, John Bork, Wilbur Williams, Jim Grelle and a few others who kept training at Dorsey High. Wilbur started running at Dorsey in 1959 and is still there. Occasionally, people who are known in the sport showed up. Max Truex and Phil Knight come to mind.

I am glad that you, too, are still enjoying the sport. I still see Joe occassionally on San Vincente. You, Joe and Laszlo seem to be the coaches that are keeping Mike's method's alive.

Orville Atkins

WOW! Bob Schul! Could you drop by and post more?

Such a good thread...

I just thought of another story about Coach Igloi's prognostication abilities. As I stated above, he was a master at predicting what an athlete would run. He was proud of this ability. I ran into him in 1972 in the airport in Munich as we both left the city after the 1972 Olympic Games. I had not seen Mike for four or five years. We talked for a while about the Games and then what training I was doing. He then said that I would run my best time. The next spring I did! I ran 3 minutes under my best time and came second in a marathon in Anaheim at age 36. I do think he was one of the greatest coaches our sport has had.

And then there is the Ron Clarke story that I have that always makes me laugh. One Saturday during the time I was training with the Los Angeles Track Cub, on the way to workout, I heard on the radio that Ron Clarke had just taken around 35 seconds or so off the world record for 6 miles or 10,000 meters. I forget which or if it was both at that time. As soon as I saw Coach, I told him the time Clarke had run. Igloi replied "Impossible". He kept repeating "Impossible" during the rest of the afternoon. By the time I left for home, I was convinced that I had heard the time incorrectly. I had not.

I would like to point out that Coach Igloi watched every workout I did for 20 months. He was often on the track with me for 3 hours plus in the evening leaving about eight and returning at 5:30 or so in the morning for another 60 or 90 minutes or more. He was there in rain, fog, cold and heat. During that time, he never asked me for a cent in payment. I owe him for being a Father, Coach, Professor and Friend during the time I ran under his tutelage. I thank him!

Bob, I read your book and thought it was great. I wish it had some detailed workouts in it but a good read nonetheless.

Orville, I saw you this summer at the mile in Cambridge... I was the one who led the first 1400m of the race to finish 4th.

One of the coaches we have in Guelph is a guy named Zoltan Tenke. He knew Mihaly well as they both coached in Hungary and both left around the same time. One went to coach in Greece and the other in Turkey before they both came to the States. Zoltan is a jumps coach and was once an olympic athlete himself. Igloi's training method fascinates me and I have incorporated change of pace stuff in the past couple years that I feel really helps.

Orville:

I read your personal history of marathoning with great joy. Wow, what a career! Thank you so much for sharing your story with me. Tinman

Bob,

I greatly enjoyed my trip to Cambridge last summer. I met up with a number of team mates from the early 60s. It was great fun. What I wonder is how you enjoyed racing on cinders. How much difference do you think it made in comparison to today's tracks?

Another aside. I raced 15 miles in Guelph on Thanksgiving Day four years in a row in the early 1960s. Do they still have that Thanksgiving Day race carnival?

There was a thread on the Track and Field News Historical web site a few months ago by Julius (Gyula) Penzes, an Hungarian National team member who ran the 5,000 and 10,000 in the 50s. He had the 6th fastest time in the world (29:48.6) in 1953. He said he now lives in Jackson, Oregon. I assume Zoltan knows him from his days in Hungary.

By the way, after Igloi left Santa Monica in the very late 60s or ealy 70s he went to Greece to coach. I believe that Coach stayed ther until he retired which was much later.

Tinman, thank you for the comments. I am still writing the account of my running in the 60s and then will do the narative of the 70s and 80s. I will copy you if I ever finish. It should have detailed outlines of the workouts given me by my coaches (Foot, Igloi, Bork, Douglas and Atkins). I am having as much fun with those workouts now as I did when I did them and raced.