Robby Andrews has a pretty good one.
Robby Andrews has a pretty good one.
Woodstock wrote:
Peter Snell in the Tokyo olympics 1500m, put about 10 meters on the field in the last 200.
Snell probably had the best kick at that particular time, but he would have been demolished against the likes of Coe & Co.
ventolin^3 wrote:
i'd offer :
coe - 45.7/45.8
ryun - 45.8/46.0
cram - 46.2/46.3
noah - 46.3
asbel - 46.9/47.0
ovett - 47.0/47.1
morceli - 47.5
hicham - 47.7
bernie - 47.8/48.0
aouita - 48.0/48.2
keino - 48.4
You'd offer this because you are a moron. Ryun in "real life" was about 2 seconds slower over 400 meters, as was Cram; Ovett had a PR of 47.5 and comparable relay times--none of these guesses square with what we actually know about the runners above.
Daily double wrote:
Any votes?
Others?
No and Yes.
The no: 1980 Moscow 800 he is out kicked by Steve Ovett in the 800, his event to win.
The yes: 1980 Moscow 1500 he out kicks Steve Ovett in the 1500, Ovetts event to win.
The moral to the story is your kick is only as good as it is on that day that it won for you.
ventolin^3 wrote:
kick essentially means what 400 you are bringing to a slow race
i'd offer :
coe - 45.7/45.8
ryun - 45.8/46.0
cram - 46.2/46.3
noah - 46.3
asbel - 46.9/47.0
ovett - 47.0/47.1
morceli - 47.5
hicham - 47.7
bernie - 47.8/48.0
aouita - 48.0/48.2
keino - 48.4
this is pretty much more or less what i'd expect the order to be in a slow 1500, say 3'35 - 3'40 pace to bell, with a mass sprint by the bunch at the bell ( with some tweaks )
Rudisha, B.Konchellah and M.Everett all would have brought more to the table. Do you realize that Konch's 45.38, admittedly at Nairobi, was done at age 17?
Check out video on YouTube from Tokyo Olympic of Peter snell---his kick on the backstraight is killer!
ventolin^3 wrote:
over 800, in a slow race, say 1'45/1'46, he woudn't
he likely had 45.7/45.8 ability in '81
plenty of elite 800 guys with faster 400 ability than that ( caballo 44.2 ! ) & 1'45/1'46 woudn't overly tax 1'42 or even 1'43 guys, so they woud bring near enough whole 400 speed to the table
he'd get beat
Nonsense! We've been here before not so long ago with other posters on another thread.
Having a faster 400pb is no guarantee of a better kick in a 1:45/1:46 race. In one outside 1:50 possibly, but not in faster races.
Coe has the fastest last 100m on record for an 800m ~ 11.3/24.6 in 81 Europa Cup semi 1:47.
He ran a last 100m in 12.0 in 81 World Cup (24.7 last 200) in a 1:46.1.
He ran 12.4 last 100m in European Champs 86, in a 1:44.5 and a 12.3 in a 1:44.0 800m in 81.
Despite a few fruitless efforts and being challenged by others, you have failed to come up with ANY last 100m kicks as fast (let alone faster!) as this, either from men with faster 400pbs or not.
A vintage Coe would have been just as deadly in the last 100m of a 1:45 800 as he would in a 3:35 1500, unless he ran wide and a tactically awful race as he did in Moscow.
Now please provide examples of these faster last 100m kicks from all these guys with faster 400pbs?
Deano what's your take on the Rivelin Valley Road sessions? Do you think that with the road being slightly downhill this was one of the overlooked reasons why Seb was so good. I don't think there has been much research into this kind of session i.e. running faster with a gradient. Didn't he start doing those 6 x 800's on the Rivelin Valley when he was 13?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKgUuMzMWk4
(3:00 onwards)
deanouk wrote:
ventolin^3 wrote:over 800, in a slow race, say 1'45/1'46, he woudn't
he likely had 45.7/45.8 ability in '81
plenty of elite 800 guys with faster 400 ability than that ( caballo 44.2 ! ) & 1'45/1'46 woudn't overly tax 1'42 or even 1'43 guys, so they woud bring near enough whole 400 speed to the table
he'd get beat
Nonsense! We've been here before not so long ago with other posters on another thread.
Having a faster 400pb is no guarantee of a better kick in a 1:45/1:46 race. In one outside 1:50 possibly, but not in faster races.
Coe has the fastest last 100m on record for an 800m ~ 11.3/24.6 in 81 Europa Cup semi 1:47.
He ran a last 100m in 12.0 in 81 World Cup (24.7 last 200) in a 1:46.1.
He ran 12.4 last 100m in European Champs 86, in a 1:44.5 and a 12.3 in a 1:44.0 800m in 81.
Despite a few fruitless efforts and being challenged by others, you have failed to come up with ANY last 100m kicks as fast (let alone faster!) as this, either from men with faster 400pbs or not.
A vintage Coe would have been just as deadly in the last 100m of a 1:45 800 as he would in a 3:35 1500, unless he ran wide and a tactically awful race as he did in Moscow.
Now please provide examples of these faster last 100m kicks from all these guys with faster 400pbs?
You should not bash ventolin. He has his calculator and he has all the races on TV, so he knows more than anybody else.
break it up wrote:
Their are different types of kicks. In a fast race Coe was the best in the last 150.
In a slow race, Steve Ovett and Fermin Cacho were better.
In a slow race Abdi Bile had the greatest long kick in a World Championship. Steve Cram was also strong the last 300.
El G proved his heart outkicking Lagat in 2004. Before that, he had little evidence that he could win in a kick race.
Morceli and Aouita and Jim Ryun had awesome last 400 kicks .
Coe was the only one I've ever seen shift gears three time in the last 200 of a 1500. The LA 1500 was remarkeable how he had another gear the last 100 in a 3:32 race.
I agree that nowadays the perception is that there certainly are different kinds of kicks, although I think the true meaning of the word relates to a change in pace over a short distance.
Cram, EL G & Bile, for example were able to run fast last 400s, especially off slowish pace, but this was generally more of a gradual "wind up" over maybe 50-100m. They often ran their fastest 100m stretch on the back straight or last bend, usually slowing down (fatigue, not choice) in the last 100m. To me, as great as they were and as great as this tactic was, this does not constitute a real "kick".
The best "kickers" in the middle distance events were Snell, Coe, Ovett & Aouita. Coe & Aouita in particular, had great changes of pace even off fast pace.
Ovett was dangerous in slower races, especially if the first 200m of the last lap hadn't speeded up much; e.g World Cup 1500 in 77.
Over 800m I've never seen anyone kick away from a world class field in the last 100m the way Coe did at his best, whether the pace was 1:43 or 1:47.
And I don't think Cacho or Ovett were better over the last 400m than Coe in a slow race either. The Moscow final wasn't fast at 3:38.4, yet he ran a 25.0 last 200 and 12.1 last 100m. The latter split wasn't matched in any race by Cacho or Ovett.
In the 5000/10000 category, there was Yifter, Geb & Bekele. For my mind they have shown the greatest change in tempo during the last lap. Mo was great last year, but again, I feel he falls into the category of Cram, EL G, etc, where the pace gets gradually faster and reaches its fastest before the last 100m. The World 10k final is a case in point.
ventolin^3 wrote:
break it up wrote:Coe was the only one I've ever seen shift gears three time in the last 200 of a 1500. The LA 1500 was remarkeable how he had another gear the last 100 in a 3:32 race.that is overblown
cram was a 3'33.1 guy that year
it makes his kick look over-valued
hicham kicked 53+ in his 3'26.00
Yes, but EL G's last 200/100 at the end of that 53 last 400 was nowhere near 25.7/12.7. Coe's last lap just got faster and faster.
And EL G's run was a one off paced affair, not the 7th race in 9 days in a Championship event held in hot conditions.
The fact that Cram only ran 3:33.1 in 84 doesn't mean that's all he was capable of. Coe only ran 3:32.3 that year, but he was capable of sub 3:30. Cram was in as good a form as he had been in 83, and showed nothing prior to his 85 season that matched what Coe did in LA.
My favorite kick in a race is Yifter in the 10000 in 1980. He took off so fast it looked like he went from being in ~5th to being in first without ever being in between.
Deano's absolutely right about Coe's kick being equally effective off fast or slow pace.
Ventolin was asked to put forward stats on all these faster 400m runners who he claimed could match Coe and run a 12 flat at the end of a 1:45/1:46 over a month ago, and couldn't come up with 1.
Having a faster 400m pr does not mean you have a better "kick" in an 800m, certainly not in a 1:45 or 1:46, which while not super fast, is still world class running.
10K/5k: Vaatainen (e.g. Helsinki '71).
1500: Cacho (off a "slow" pace e.g. Barcelona '92) or Morceli (off a "faster pace e.g. Gothenburg '95).
800: Ovett (e.g. Moscow '80).
Are we talking about just the 1500/800 or overall? If overall then I choose Bekele. He destroys anyone over the last lap fast or slow. In 2006 he had a final lap of 53.03 to win in 12:48! His kick in pretty much every championship race made the rest of the field look like joggers.
a Coe fan wrote:
Deano what's your take on the Rivelin Valley Road sessions? Do you think that with the road being slightly downhill this was one of the overlooked reasons why Seb was so good. I don't think there has been much research into this kind of session i.e. running faster with a gradient. Didn't he start doing those 6 x 800's on the Rivelin Valley when he was 13?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKgUuMzMWk4(3:00 onwards)
I have read something about that theory before, but can't for the life of me remember where, at present.
It suggested that by running slightly downhill it enabled him to run (tick over) that little bit faster than he would on a flat. I guess the body gets used to a particular tempo over many sessions and many years!
However, I believe he did the same quality (in terms of time) with those 6 x 800m on the track in the summer.
I've also heard that the Rivelin Valley road stretch he used wasn't downhill all the way, but undulating. Some of the 800 stretches were slightly uphill too!
So, I don't really know, although I agree it would be a fascinating session to research. Perhaps it was the undulation that was key!?
If anyone else has any more info/ data, would be cool to read it.
Fluffy wrote:
Are we talking about just the 1500/800 or overall? If overall then I choose Bekele. He destroys anyone over the last lap fast or slow. In 2006 he had a final lap of 53.03 to win in 12:48! His kick in pretty much every championship race made the rest of the field look like joggers.
Bekele's kick is brutal. I saw him the last 400 of one of the Golden Cup 5000s in .49. Just completely decimated the field.
oldoldrunner wrote:
Daily double wrote:Any votes?
Others?
No and Yes.
The no: 1980 Moscow 800 he is out kicked by Steve Ovett in the 800, his event to win.
The yes: 1980 Moscow 1500 he out kicks Steve Ovett in the 1500, Ovetts event to win.
The moral to the story is your kick is only as good as it is on that day that it won for you.
I see the point you're making, but in actual fact Ovett didn't so much "outkick" Coe in the Moscow 800, but rather out foxed him.
Coe was actually the fastest finisher of anyone in the race over the last 200m and 100m, despite running wider, and thus further, than anyone else over the last 200m and 400m.
Coe ran about 407m on the 2nd lap in 50.6 (worth about 49.7 for 400m), compared to Ovett's 50.5, running 400m, possibly 401m.
Coe's last 200m was 24.9 (running an extra 2.5-3m), slightly faster than Ovett's 25.0, and even over the last 100m, Coe was marginally faster (12.6 to 12.7).
So Coe was beaten by Ovett, but he certainly wasn't outkicked by him. Coe just ran a bad race, gave Ovett too much of a lead with 300m to go and had to run wide on the last two bends.
In the 1500m, Ovett ran a good tactical race, was drafted and followed Coe all the way, was on his compatriot's shoulder with 100m to go, but was simply outkicked by Coe.
Coe ran that last 100m in 12.1, Ovett in 12.6, faster than his last 100m in the 800m final!
What I'm Talkin About wrote:
Fluffy wrote:Are we talking about just the 1500/800 or overall? If overall then I choose Bekele. He destroys anyone over the last lap fast or slow. In 2006 he had a final lap of 53.03 to win in 12:48! His kick in pretty much every championship race made the rest of the field look like joggers.
Bekele's kick is brutal. I saw him the last 400 of one of the Golden Cup 5000s in .49. Just completely decimated the field.
I agree Bekele's kick is the best ever over 5 & 10k, especially in fast races, but I'm pretty sure (though not 100%) he never finished a 5000 in under 50sec! I don't think anyone has, so that's not a slight on Bekele btw.
If you know when this was I'd be very interested.
Pharma Inc wrote:
Viren the king of the dopers.
lesse Viren: "I did nothing illegal."
Alberto Salazar: " You must try everything within the legal limits."