ranking of all 17 countries w/5+ sub-2:10 men

You're using some different criteria from the OP's list. I see some foreign-born runners on the U.S. and, uh, all of France's lists. You didn't indicate which races these were run at either - are any from aided courses?

Interesting that the top 4 play out the same way as the OP's list, though.

This post helps answer something I was wondering about. Is Ryan Hall the best non-African marathoner currently running? From the first post on this board. It looks like only two non-African runners (one from Japan, one from Brazil) have a faster PR than Ryan. However, both of those are from 9 or more years ago. I wonder in all of Ryan's marathons, how many non-African runners have finished ahead of him? Of those runners, what is his win/loss record against them?

I bring this up because once again after the 2011 Chicago Marathon, people were disappointed that Ryan Hall didn't win. However, I think Ryan Hall should be celebrated for what he is. Minus the billion or so people that are from Africa, Ryan is the fasted current marathoner of the other 6.5 billion people on the planet. That's pretty impressive. Let's be proud of him. Also, if Ryan can achieve that, with the proper encouragement, why couldn't we produce 5 or 10 more US born runners just like him?

Redoing your 2011 USA list to match the OP's criteria:

2:08:07 Ryan Hall Chicago

2:11:30 Nick Arciniaga Houston

2:11:46 Ed Moran New York

2:13:40 Jason Lehmkuhle London

2:16:44 Bobby Curits New York

Ave: 2:12:21

France has zero native-born men under 2:18 this year.

It is amazing how the level has dropped in countries like

England and Germany. Nobody is close to the times from 80s.

Wonder why (no doping accusations!!)

You have to be mindful of references to "England" since Steve Jones is Welsh. Hence the OP reference to "Great Britain".

Anyone know who England's fifth would be?

tweener wrote:

... However, I think Ryan Hall should be celebrated for what he is. Minus the billion or so people that are from Africa, Ryan is the fasted current marathoner of the other 6.5 billion people on the planet. ..

I'd go even further. Minus the 20 or so Africans who are better than Hall right now, Ryan is the fastest current marathoner of the other 7,000,023,766 people on the planet. I'd say very impressive!

I know you can't make exceptions, but I highly doubt Boston 1982 (Salazar and Beardsley sub-2:09) was aided as compared to the flat courses that make up the bulk of the locations on your list.

If you want to use your silly criteria you better add Derek Clayton's time to the British list, Khannouchi's time to the Moroccan list and Frank Shorter's time to the German list.

Yes, O.P. do sub 2:10 marathon times run by non-native born runners cease to exist in your world? Countries like USA and Australia are made up of immigrants. You need to include all sub 2:10 runners somewhere on your list.

right. What about Hugh Jones. 2:09.25 if i recall.

Seeing this brought two thoughts to mind. Being British, the clear decline is sad to see. Also, Eritrea being so high, that's just depressing!

The thing is see from this(im a good stater of the obvious) is how far ahead kenya is. Esp on the 2011 list. If you scored it XC style on the original list against the rest of the world kenya has 16 points lol. And thats with only haile breaking up a sweep. And if you made it 10 or 20 deep it would be even worse.

It's tough to draw firm conclusions about how U.S., Japanese, and European marathoners compare using this list. The best runners in the U.S. often choose to run NY and Boston, and these races aren't included. The best European runners and runners from Great Britain, on the other hand, often choose London, Berlin, and other races closer to home, which are included. Similarly, the best Japanese marathoners often choose the big races in their country, which are included. I mean, does anyone really think Boston and New York are easier courses to run a fast time on than Berlin or London? I say include all the races, except extreme outliers like Boston 2011. U.S. still wouldn't do great, but I think you could draw (slightly) firmer conclusions from that list.

All this "native-born" b.s. is really getting unsavory. Would you have all non-native-born runners to wear a yellow star patch in competitions?

did you forgot that G mutai run the fastest time ever in Boston this year? i i quote "2.03.02" !!!!

ggg wrote:

It is amazing how the level has dropped in countries like

England and Germany. Nobody is close to the times from 80s.

Wonder why (no doping accusations!!)

I can give a hypothesis for Germany:

The gap between good amateur level (~2:18), and the times required to make it as a pro (< 2:12), is too large nowadays, making it very difficult to bridge.

This year, former European 10,000m champion Jan Fitschen tops the German ranking with 2:15, achieved in his second career marathon - right in no man's land, but due to his titles and general marketability, he is in a rare position of attracting sponsorship and appearance fees at German races. Last year, it was Falk Cierpinski in 2:17 - he is the son of former Olympic champion Waldemar Cierpinski, which helps him somewhat. The next fastest runners in the past few years have all been amateurs, which also means that for the rare 2:15 runners, there are almost no peers to compete and train with.

Of course, with exceptional talent and dedication, amateurs too can run faster, and many have done so, even in Germany. However, the total lack of German pro (male) marathon runners for a few years already also means talented younger athletes from Germany have been driven to different sports (including pro cycling, which probably taps into the same talent pool) at a very early stage.

And just to add:

The fastest 10,000m last year was run by Jan Fitschen (recovering from injury) in 28:32. The previous year, when Fitschen was injured, it was 29:40, by Eritrean-born Filmon Ghirmai. The marathon times are actually on par with these.

You forgot about the Canucks, not all time as we have no sub 2:10 guys, but just 2011:02:10:55 Reid Coolsaet CAN02:11:28 Eric Gillis CAN02:12:57 Dylan Wykes CAN02:16:01 Matt Loiselle CAN02:16:17 Robin Watson CANAVG 02:13:32

According to the idiot O.P.'s criteria you can scratch 2:09:55 - Waldemar Cierpinski Montreal 1976 off the German list. He was not born in the Federal Republic of Germany. However, you can replace him with Frank Shorter, who was born in the Federal Republic of Germany.