How does Fayeteville-Manlius do it?

Really. wrote:

fast wrote:

CBA, which is arguably the best boys XC program in the country, is not to secretive in their training. Their coaches hold a sleep-away XC camp every sumer and have a website where they tell people what they do in training. Supposedly, their entire top 7 runs 75 a week in doubles during the sumer. And during the school year, their top runners do a workout before school (a run or biking), and run at practice after school. They also do a lot of water running. On flotrack there is a video of them doing a 400m repeat workout and another of their top runner showing all of their facilities and explains their work ethic and tradition.

Could you post the link to the site? I couldn't find it.

Methinks... wrote:

Is year round coaching allowed in NY? That might help just a little...

thats right, the rules are slanted to NY

Plus they allow 7th and 8th graders on the team.

What a joke.

you cant do that in california.

There is not year round coaching. There is a thing called summer training that ALL good athletes continue in order to be prepared for the upcoming season. Your telling me that California teams don't train in the summer? I call BS!

Also, 7th graders and 8th graders are allowed to compete following a test. Most programs will not allow a 7th grader to even consider Varsity. 8th grade is a little different, but find a good program that has a 7th and 8th grader up there. It does happen from time to time, but is extremely rare.

just like every program in every state can do in one form or another, nys programs can have voluntary club runs in the summer by whatever name they may use. kinetic/saratoga comes to mind (perfectly legal and ethical), just like what several programs in cali do, that is run in the summer. as long as it is voluntary and not mandatory (implied or otherwise) the kids can choose to partake or not. many are conducted via usatf youth club organizations as well which is perfectly legal anywhere. this is very much like year round club basketball or soccer or hockey or football passing league or swim club etc.

also, 7th and 8th graders on varsity is not limited to nys as an option, though it is not open in all states as an option. for the number of teams that have sub 9th grade runners, whether or not they have junior high programs, there are very few cases where the young ones are in a position to contribute to team scoring. not never, just not that frequent. in fm’s case, they had an 8th grader in 2006 finish a couple of sec in front of their 6th at nxn, which didn’t change a thing in the race outcome (just checked, it was chapman), and it looks like this year they have a kid who might be there too. saratoga had a girl at nxn last year who was an 8th grader (smith) and maybe one this year. but it isn’t like those teams are built upon 8th grade performances nor depend on them or their programs would fall apart. just an occasional thing in most cases is all, for the kid who demonstrates that they might be far superior in their athletic development than remaining in the jr high program. if those states changed their rules for 7th and 8th graders and no longer allowed it, rest assured that those teams who did have them in the past would still be right up there.

look at every top program in your home state of cali (boys and girls) and try to find a team that does not run in the summer in some form of team association or collaboration by whatever name (ex. arcadia boys and saugus girls, et al). there is nothing wrong with it and is essential to the kids long term running health and development.

much a do about nothing.

kidding right? wrote:

There is not year round coaching. There is a thing called summer training that ALL good athletes continue in order to be prepared for the upcoming season. Your telling me that California teams don't train in the summer? I call BS!

Also, 7th graders and 8th graders are allowed to compete following a test. Most programs will not allow a 7th grader to even consider Varsity. 8th grade is a little different, but find a good program that has a 7th and 8th grader up there. It does happen from time to time, but is extremely rare.

Easy to find, simp.

Check the #1 & #2 team in country FM/Saratoga

Both have 8th grader on team in top 5.

A good friend of mine runs for their professional team, Stotan Running, so I can relate at least what I've heard from him. He related stories to me of doing sprints in freezing mud to exhaustion following a 7xMile workout, doing an unannounced time trial AFTER a time trial (both 5k on an XC course), and being told to up the pace of his easy runs when most of them were already about 6-6:10 pace to begin with. He dropped his 5k PR significantly, in practice, after a rep workout off this sort of training. They asked a very high level of commitment from these men. They also push for an intensive drill routine before each run that works on form as well as stabilizing muscles, and do use a high weight/low rep lifting routine that gets you strong as hell.

All the while they did this, the Aris' would be telling them they are still not working as hard as the high school girls.

It seems to me that to have a good high-school team, you need two things:

1) Get a lot of kids to come out for the team

2) Get a lot of them to do a decent amount of running, e.g. ~50/mpw or more plus two hard efforts per week.

If you get 150 boys or girls to come out and do 50 a week or so, odds are that at least 5 of them can go ~16:00 (for a boy) or ~18:00 (girl) which makes a very good XC team.

No doubt being a charismatic individual who really cares about the kids on the team helps too.

I used to think this as well but I've seen plenty of weak teams with huge numbers and vice versa. Specifically I believe the FM teams are usually very small relative to the numbers you put up. Arcadia wasn't particularly big either from what I remember. They also did however have a coach who was a very strong and compelling speaker who probably understood how to talk to kids and get them to buy in. My biggest surprise in this thread was the fact that they do high weight/low rep weights. I have always believed that low weight/high rep circuits with no rest did the most to build lean muscle and stability but I guess they found a better way. Can someone elaborate as to how that works?

A Skeptic wrote:

It seems to me that to have a good high-school team, you need two things:

1) Get a lot of kids to come out for the team

2) Get a lot of them to do a decent amount of running, e.g. ~50/mpw or more plus two hard efforts per week.

If you get 150 boys or girls to come out and do 50 a week or so, odds are that at least 5 of them can go ~16:00 (for a boy) or ~18:00 (girl) which makes a very good XC team.

No doubt being a charismatic individual who really cares about the kids on the team helps too.

My daughter that I train is top three in her state and is an freshman. I believe it is because she works hard. That is what I take credit for and not so much her training. She does now between 30 and 35 mile weekly. She doesn't do any of the crazy stuff.

The training approach John and I take with our adults in SR in no way resembles the approach I utilize with my high school program, other than the spirit, mind, heart ingredients which are essential in my view. While the ‘example' noted above of one of our 'so-called' practices with SR members has ‘elements' of truth (a gross exaggeration still), it is in total an absurdity.

To put in its proper context, it would be appropriate to differentiate the goals and aims of SR from my hs program. At SR, we are working with motivated post collegiate young adults who aspire to excellence in fulfilling their potential. Most have YEARS of progressive training before even seeking us out. We meet with those interested candidates, explain our approach and let them decide if it appeals to them. If so, we work together in a mutual trial period to see if it will be a good fit from both coaches and athletes perspectives. Then we go from there. Yes, the training is rigorous, as it should be, just as the goals and ambitions they bring with them are as rigorous. At this point we have 2 who will be competing in the Olympic Trials marathon and we are certainly not content to stop there as we look to the future eagerly.

At FM, I incorporate a progressive development program geared to the high school kid who has an interest in becoming the best they can become as high school runners, as a means to a possible future of running collegiately and beyond. Of course, not all kids in my program will see the podium at a state meet or nationals, not all will run in college and many will never score in a dual meet. But, they all try their best and have fun in the process. The training is geared toward the level of the high school runner, and within that frame, there are many training levels within our team which are geared to the level of the runner and their desire to fulfill their potential. This scenario is quite different from the approach John and I take in SR, as ALL of the SR candidates come to us with great desire and a motivation to excel. We simply match their training to the group collective goals and individual goals specific to the event(s) they are working toward.

While some of the aspects of both my high school program and SR are similar, (lets face it, since I coach both groups and John coaches SR hands on daily, and we have worked together for years, there are going to be similarities) those similarities are limited to the spirit of the coaches and their general approach, but tailored differently to each level of athlete at the high school level and SR.

By writing here, my intent is to clarify the very significant differences between my FM program and our SR group. Similarities yes, but scope and depth and intensity are quite different (of course), as they should be.

Now, back to reading about 7th and 8th graders before I drive to practice!

Bill Aris

Digital wrote:

My biggest surprise in this thread was the fact that they do high weight/low rep weights. I have always believed that low weight/high rep circuits with no rest did the most to build lean muscle and stability but I guess they found a better way. Can someone elaborate as to how that works?

When you perform a high reps (HR) with low weight (LW) the opposed to low reps (LR) and high weight (HW) the theory is that you are not significantly stimulating the release of Growth Hormone in the body post-workout.

The release of GH from a LR X HW workout workout is much more beneficial in terms of utilizing adipose tissue and using the fat for energy. By lifting at a higher intensity, you are not only releasing more GH but also more epinephrine. Both of these hormones are responsible for the lipolytic effect that occurs after the lifting. Epinephrine also helps stimulate glycolysis and glycogenolysis.

This type of lifting is definitely going to be a stimulus with young HS athletes because they are still in physically developing on a more complex level than adults. Their recovery rate is also a bit better (given the work load is not too much).

This doesn't mean that there are not drawbacks. There are definitely drawbacks to this type of lifting and many safety issues to think about. The key to these workouts is you want to take as much recovery ask necessary in order to allow the PCr levels to return to normal.

Lifting is not the end-all-be-all of a running program, however proper strength training certainly can make a difference if its not overdone.

I ran for FM, I would reflect Bill's sentiments but if anyone has any specific questions could answer them. Crazy/ambiguous workouts and TT's aren't far from the truth. The 80 mpw is bs though. Some got that high but only SR's and 99% of the top 7 guys over the last few years are probably running 50-70.

AMA wrote:

I ran for FM, I would reflect Bill's sentiments but if anyone has any specific questions could answer them. Crazy/ambiguous workouts and TT's aren't far from the truth. The 80 mpw is bs though. Some got that high but only SR's and 99% of the top 7 guys over the last few years are probably running 50-70.

ok, then, how does one high school dominate a nation of 300 million people repeatedly? FM is such an outlier that all these platitudes are wearing thin.

I don't know what platitudes means but, not to be contrived, it isn't far from what Bill says. FM has been really, really good for maybe 7 years now starting with the guys in 04? Everyone asks the same questions about the program and they get the same extremely long vague answers that don't really answer what they do to be successful. But I think a lot of the ambiguous, fluffy stuff Bill talks about at summits, interviews, letsrun, etc is because that's why FM is good. The differences between Saratoga, Saugus, York, CBA, etc, training is negligible. Not to say FM doesn't do special things that make them better, but that running 10 more miles a week, running barefoot on sundays, doing an extra mile on your mile repeat workout, doesn't equate to the success FM has had.

So why is FM good? The best answer I can give to that is the atmosphere at FM. The aris's get their athletes to 100% buy into their program. I'm not ra ra ra FM or Bill Aris by any means, but I will always defend that they can get kids mentally and physically fit better than any other coach in the country, HS, college, pro, whatever. Granted a lot of that has to do with the environment HS allows and the impressionableness of high school students. FM runners do EVERYTHING right. Diet, cross training, sleep, stretching, lifting, and very structured/good running for 4 years. When I was in hs, running was my entire life, I talked to Bill more than my parents, and my senior year was the fittest I've ever been in my entire life. Not because I was brainwashed or controlled, me and the Aris's fought plenty, but because I wanted to be fast. I understand this is a lot of the BS I said I wouldn't give but that's why they are good. But yeah, they do run a lot.

thanks - good information. In the end, it's either massive illegal stuff going on...or place has an unbelievable culture of excellence.

I'll go with the unbelievable culture of excellence.

PS: "Diet, cross training, sleep, stretching, lifting" - no one actually knows how to do these things right. This coaching thing is a great ball of mystery.

Find a year the NY girls would of lost NXN had they not ran a 8th grader

Stop crying and complaining!

AMA wrote:

Diet, cross training, sleep, stretching, lifting, and very structured/good running for 4 years.

you meant 6 years....minimum, big advantage.

read from some experts here:

Superspeed wrote:

Find a year the NY girls would of lost NXN had they not ran a 8th grader

Stop crying and complaining!

Was it Kentucky that allowed fifth graders to compete at the varsity level? I recall (some years ago now) that there was a girl who won State as a fifth grader, defended the next year, defended the year after that, whatever. I think she got derailed at some point in high school, actually. Just as well, I suppose: can you imagine going into your senior year and being the defending seven-time State champ? Yeah, no pressure there...

Bill, thanks very much for taking the time to post on this board at such a "crunchy" time of the season. Much appreciated.